Sharp D on Bari

[Ivan]

Dunno if this is technical or sax and accessories

I was playing a piece to a tuner on bari and I discover that an isolated note is sharp. It's the all fingers down, octave key employed D (Is that D2?)

Anyroad. All other notes are within an ace of being in tune when I concentrate hard on consistent embouchure, brows furrowed, sphincters clenched etc., but the D2 is way over

Could this be a technically correctable problem or something I'll have to live with on to the machine I use: Bauhaus?

 

[Fraser Jarvis]

Just release the grip a bit with your sphincter and ya should be good ta go haha.

 

[aldevis]

D1-D2 is a pain on many, many instruments.
It might improve with different mouthpiece, but if you are consistent with your embouchure there are two possible solutions:
1- You memorize that the saxophone is an imperfect instrument and you relax your embouchure on that note. It also avoids that stuffiness we all love on D2
2- You experiment with blu-tac crescents inside the C chimney. For reasons that @jbtsax will be delighted to explain, it flattens the upper register more than the lower.

Do not forget that digital tuners, like many digital things, are tools of the devil to make us spend more money.

 

[Ivan]

D1-D2 is a pain on many, many instruments.
It might improve with different mouthpiece, but if you are consistent with your embouchure there are two possible solutions:
1- You memorize that the saxophone is an imperfect instrument and you relax your embouchure on that note. It also avoids that stuffiness we all love on D2
2- You experiment with blu-tac crescents inside the C chimney. For reasons that @jbtsax will be delighted to explain, it flattens the upper register more than the lower.

Do not forget that digital tuners, like many digital things, are tools of the devil to make us spend more money.

I expect the C chimney is somewhere inside the instrument and not the sort of double entendre much loved by the Joan Collins Fanclub

Yes I use the tuner with caution but the piece is this month's ballad and there's a critical long D2 that sounds right (and digitally tunes right) with a more flatulent lip only on that note

 

[aldevis]

I expect the C chimney is somewhere inside the instrument and not the sort of double entendre much loved by the Joan Collins Fanclub

Exactly: it is where the pad activated by your RH pinky goes when you play low C

Yes I use the tuner with caution but the piece is this month's ballad and there's a critical long D2 that sounds right (and digitally tunes right) with a more flatulent lip only on that note

If it was flat, you would have used a more sharpulent lip.

 

[jbtsax]

Sorry Aldevis, my experience is that both octaves are flattened the same amount by the use of a "crescent" which in effect is moving the tonehole away from the mouthpiece end of the saxophone. This is a common difficulty on the sax due to the fact that the low D is often slightly flat and the D2 is quite sharp. Lowing D2 mechanically helps tune the upper note but causes the lower one to go even flatter. Since the low octave is nearly impossible to lip higher it makes the lower octave virtually unusable.

Skilled technicians who adjust clarinets and oboes sometimes "undercut" the toneholes which does affect the lower octave (or register) more than the upper. In effect, it raises the pitch of the low register note while keeping the pitch of the upper note the same which "shrinks" the octaves or 12ths. This same effect is not possible on the saxophone or flute due to the wall thickness of the instrument and the construction of the toneholes.

There are some other possible fixes for a very sharp D2 when it is held as a longer note. You can add the low B key to bring down the pitch. Sometimes it also helps to substitute the palm D key for the thumb octave vent. That fingering changes the timbre of the note and what it does to the pitch varies from horn to horn.

 

[Ivan]

There are some other possible fixes for a very sharp D2 when it is held as a longer note. You can add the low B key to bring down the pitch. Sometimes it also helps to substitute the palm D key for the thumb octave vent. That fingering changes the timbre of the note and what it does to the pitch varies from horn to horn.

Of course. Alternative fingering!

Thanks that's exceptionally useful

 

[Ivan]

If it was flat, you would have used a more sharpulent lip.

We should start a Cafe Sax dictionary as a resource for the masses

Teachers up and down the land will be telling their pupils to practice their sharpulence and flatulence. Or suggesting they upgrade their horn from student level to pruple

 

[aldevis]

Is it in tune if you play D2 with no OK?

 

[Ivan]

Is it in tune if you play D2 with no OK?

Sorry you've lost me

 

[jbtsax]

Great question Aldevis. You can play the 2nd octave of a saxophone by fingering the low octave note and "voicing" the 2nd octave note with your oral cavity. This is especially easy on bari. It is a great way to see how much the "compromise" octave vent position makes a note go sharp when you add the octave key and open the vent while holding the note played as a harmonic.

 

[Ivan]

Is it in tune if you play D2 with no OK?

Understand now

I'll experiment when home tomorrow

 

[aldevis]

Sorry Aldevis, my experience is that both octaves are flattened the same amount by the use of a "crescent" which in effect is moving the tonehole away from the mouthpiece end of the saxophone. This is a common difficulty on the sax due to the fact that the low D is often slightly flat and the D2 is quite sharp. Lowing D2 mechanically helps tune the upper note but causes the lower one to go even flatter. Since the low octave is nearly impossible to lip higher it makes the lower octave virtually unusable.

I hoped you knew the secret art. The idea behind, is similar to undercutting: you end up with a conical(ish) chimney. I only did it once on a soprano and it kind of worked, but I am not sure I could replicate it.

 

[jbtsax]

I hoped you knew the secret art. The idea behind, is similar to undercutting: you end up with a conical(ish) chimney. I only did it once on a soprano and it kind of worked, but I am not sure I could replicate it.

I have contemplated that idea for a long time ever since I attended an oboe repair workshop. I have never been able to completely grasp how to make a sax tonehole smaller at the top than the bottom. If one tilted all of the sides of the tonehole inward to form a "cone" it might work. I was going to add that tilting the sides inward would lower the effective height of the tonehole, but when I drew the graphic below, I discovered that this lowering would be quite small compared to the difference in openings from top to bottom. You may be on to something. Back to the drawing board. I may be able to talk one of my friends who has a lathe into making some tapered inserts to experiment with.

 

[aldevis]

I have contemplated that idea for a long time ever since I attended an oboe repair workshop. I have never been able to completely grasp how to make a sax tonehole smaller at the top than the bottom. If one tilted all of the sides of the tonehole inward to form a "cone" it might work. I was going to add that tilting the sides inward would lower the effective height of the tonehole, but when I drew the graphic below, I discovered that this lowering would be quite small compared to the difference in openings from top to bottom. You may be on to something. Back to the drawing board. I may be able to talk one of my friends who has a lathe into making some tapered inserts to experiment with.

I was more rough.
Blu-tac worked enough, and I roughly replicated the shape with cork.
I just worked on the upper side of the tonehole.
We trust you will come with a neater solution 🙂

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think we are all agree, sharp D2 is just an occupational hazard. A cure one day might be a separate octave key for each note, or at least an extra octave key lower down for the D.