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Saxophone Fakes.

littleplum

Member
Messages
441
Some of you may remember a couple of years ago I posted a thread regarding a sax I bought from ebay. Eventually I found out that it wasn't a real instrument but a fake, totally unplayable.

well since then I have come across a couple more of them on ebay, including 2 that are on there at the moment. I always contact the seller to warn them and some of them remove them straight away and others leave them on.

all of them have the same features, bright red bulbous pads. Red finger touches, and red rollers. The sax is based on a very old design, possibly a coulson.

What would you suggest I do if they leave them on for sale?

regards

dave
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
Good on you Dave. Was one here recently, auction vanished. Guess someone must have notified ebay...
 

littleplum

Member
Messages
441
one of the ones I saw the other day now has 6 bids at £46. The lady said that she would take it to her local music shop asap to check . I will report I think. I bought mine as a fixer upper but its only use us as an ornament. They all cover themselves by saying they never had chance to learn to play so its time to sell it.

will let you know how I get on.
 

Dave Mac

Honest, I'm Trying
Subscriber
Messages
381
Did anyone ever find out about those brand new 'Yamaha YAS275s' that were selling for a ridiculously low price on ebay a couple of months ago?

dave.
 

Pyrografix

Senile Member
Messages
1,026
Did anyone ever find out about those brand new 'Yamaha YAS275s' that were selling for a ridiculously low price on ebay a couple of months ago?

dave.
Yes - they didn't exist! I made various enquiries and reported the seller to ebay - the listing was removed.
 

altissimo

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,354
If you mean those indian made "saxes" with no low Bb that look like they're based on an old 19th century design, technically they're not fakes, they're just really really bad..
These things are widely available in India for about 40 quid along with other poorly made wind instruments and are produced for the local brass bands and wedding bands. Here's an example - http://www.trmusicals.com/mainmanufacturing.htm
View attachment 1466

a lot of them seem to be made in Meerut in Northern India, a city which - according to Wikipedia - has the dubious honour of being the country's largest producer of these abominations.

I once spent an entertaining afternoon in a music shop in Kathmandu examining some of these monstrosities along with guitars bearing amusing names like Givson, Yemaha and even a Tender stratocaster. Some of the Albert system clarinets were nearly playable, but the saxes were dreadful. I assume the poor folks who make these things are paid on quantity rather than quality - I've never seen such shoddy metalwork. I think Stephen Howard has some comments on these hideous contraptions on his website.
What amazes me is that the local wedding bands could actually play such awful instruments, never mind leading a wedding procession all afternoon, although I only saw one sax player - they mainly stick to clarinets and brass -

Several years ago I saw one of these indian "saxes" for sale on a reputable US sax dealers' website listed as being an antique handmade french instrument, I emailed them to point out their error, but their response was that it was definitely an old french sax. I didn't bother argueing with them, just sent them a link to one of the indian websites selling these "instruments" - the listing was taken off their website.
Unfortunately these things are now being exported and are starting to turn up on ebay being sold by unsuspecting people who know nothing about saxes and being bought by unfortunate people who think they're getting a playable instrument.
I applaud your efforts to warn people about these bits of junk.
I've also read about fake chinese instruments like Besson curved sopranos and Buffet clarinets. There are chinese websites that claim to have brand new Selmer saxes for sale, but I doubt they're genuine
 
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jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,680
These things have been sold on eBay for years. They're not fakes, so as long as the seller doesn't lie in the description there's not a lot eBay can do. They're just really, really awful and totally unplayable. They are pretty easy to spot, however. It's an example of buyer beware - if you are buying from eBay you absolutely must know what it is you're looking at. If you don't, and you buy a lemon, you really need to take on some of the blame yourself. If you're at all uncertain about what you're buying, far, better to support your local music shop and buy there. Not only will you get (in most cases) better advice and support, the application of consumer legislation and protection will be far more effective than could possibly be applied to a fly by night eBay trader. It will cost more, but that's better than blowing money on something useless.
 

TheCureFan

Member
Messages
207
If you're at all uncertain about what you're buying, far, better to support your local music shop and buy there. Not only will you get (in most cases) better advice and support, the application of consumer legislation and protection will be far more effective than could possibly be applied to a fly by night eBay trader. It will cost more, but that's better than blowing money on something useless.
+1 for this advice.

cheap e-bay knockoffs are a doubled edge sword. Parents probably buy them cos there not sure little johnny is going to stick at it so don't want to spend lots. Problem is the instrument is so unplayable little johnny quits not because he doesn't like sax just that he cant play a piece of junk.

I looked at ebay initially but felt it better to spend a bit extra in proper music shop and get good advice and a quality instrument that should see me through a good few years.
 

milandro

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,484
The curse of the Saxophone shaped object or saxophone simulacrum. Not, strictly speaking, a fake, but not a saxophone as in a musical instrument.

They are everywhere and have been for sale for as long as I can remember. Some 20 years ago I remember I spoke to someone selling them on a market (they were together with simulacra of a clarinet and a trumpet) he had honestly no idea they were unplayable.

Most of these are sold as a decoration instrument while sometimes people buy them believing that they are real instruments ad attracted by a (generally) low price .

Ebay even warns about the Bessons instruments and talks of trumpets and tubas but fails to warn against the saxophone with the same brand (and the same serial number!)

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Bessons-and-Co-Brass-Instruments-more?ugid=10000000001914378
 

altissimo

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,354
Stephen Howard's comments on the indian sax shaped objects can be found about 3/4 of the way down this page - http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/misc/black_museum.htm

there are various threads on fake Buffet and Yamaha clarinets on SOTW and other forums.
It's safe to assume that anyone from China selling brand name instruments like Buffet, Yamaha or Selmer on Ebay should be avoided, it's the dodgy instruments that are already in this country that are the problem.
It's a simple task to engrave a generic chinese sax with "Yamaha" or "Selmer" and flog it on ebay from somewhere like China where you'd never track down the seller

My general rules for buying off the internet are -
Avoid buying from any website that doesn't have a business address - PO boxes don't count
Try to buy from someone in this country where trading standards can get at them
If ordering from abroad try to buy from a reputable company that have been in business for a long time
Pay for it using a method that has payment protection - Barclaycard refunded my money when I got ripped off by a mail order company
If you have any doubts, don't buy it - better to miss out on a bargain than lose your money

Ebay positive feedback can be faked - don't ask me how, but I know ebay traders who've been duped by seemingly legit buyers/sellers.

Beware of fake MP3 players, USB memory sticks and flash drives on ebay and elsewhere - http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/BEWARE-of-FAKE-128GB-256GB-USB-Flash-Drives-on-eBay?ugid=10000000001236067

http://fakeflashnews.wordpress.com/

http://fightflashfraud.wordpress.com/

most ebay sellers are genuine and you can kind of tell from the way things are worded and the photos etc that they're not fraudsters
the one's who use stock photos and copy and paste descriptions from the manufacturers' websites arouse my suspicions, although some of them are genuine dealers who're too busy to write their own descriptions
 

littleplum

Member
Messages
441
IT went for £64 plus £10 postage! Poor sod. I contacted ebay but they didnt get too it in time. Mine home has pads that look like they are made out of an old red leather sofa, and each one is the size of a bouncy castle!

Every seller that sells them, says that they bought it to learn to play but never got round to it! So they are covering themselves if they get found out.

Looking at that indian website, I am sure that it is one of theirs, mine is an unlaquered brass one.

Surely if the seller did take it to a local music shop they would have put her right.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
Just cos a sax has red pads, doesn't mean, per se, that it's an Indian piece of junk. Quite a few Dolnets still retain their original red pads. Maybe some other brands as well, not sure.
 
Messages
70
hi good folks not sure how RED you are talking here the pads on my little cheapo Chinese tenor are redish pink and apart from my awful attempts to play it ..i think my music teacher thought it was a fairly good wee starter instrument..it didnt cost the earth either £250 to £300 will get a tenor or alto from Gear4music.co.uk..where mine came from ... maybe people reading this who want to get little joe or alice their first instrument should try them.... obviously we all can then save up to get the real good one like i hope to do soon..but it certainly seems a better option to start to learn on rather than risky deals unseen from ebay
 

milandro

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,484
This is not about the Chinese saxophones which pads, sometimes have a reddish tint.

No, the indian pads are REALLY red and bulgy because they are trying to imitate a sax from the end of the 19th century



 
Messages
70
i very much appreciate that Milandro and i admit i know absolutely nothing about saxs but im taking a sideways slant at this...when i first started looking for a sax a few months ago... i first started looking for how to play one on the internet..found Pete Thomas ..found cafe sax etc etc... now i couldnt possibly have justified forking out nearly a grand for something i had no idea whether or not i could even get a note out of..i cant even read music properly yet......theres a lot of parents out there presumably about to do the same as i did and who could quite possibly arrive on this very site looking advice and im just thinking that its a very good idea to warn them and at the same time that its bad to scare them with this thread if we dont point out its possible to start with a cheap and satisfactory then move to the real thing if the child becomes good at it
regards
jimmy
 
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milandro

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,484
Well, I can imagine that someone would fall for these objects if found on internet really cheap and badly photographed.

It is possible to find real saxophones for very little money out there, you need a bit of luck, lots of patience and someone’s experience but you will find what you look for.
 
Messages
70
Mil i agree with you 100% and the photos youve provided are excellent but they should be somewhere up front on the whole site on a big bill board saying "beware of these sudo fakes " and not just going to get lost in a long forgotten thread thats disappeared off into the history pages...its advice and pictures like yours which would keep complete new arrivals like me safe THANK YOU FOR THOSE
 
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