Saxophones Sax Tenor Julius Keilwerth New King 1939 Series 1

[Koshe1984]

Hi guys. I have one of first Julius Keilwerth King 1939 y.o. taking into account the serial number and side chromatic keys i think its series 1 model

Who in known what price for this saxophones now?

 

[DavidUK]

Depends on cosmetic condition, state of repair, and playability.

It's the sort of horn I'd pay £50 or so for.

Anyhow, please do tell us more about your saxophone journey in the Doorbell section.

 

[stitch]

It's the sort of horn I'd pay £50 or so for.

I'm not sure you're the most reliable market indicator ...

 

[Koshe1984]

Guys from the saxquest.com company answered my question. and this is what they said.

 

[DavidUK]

Great news! Go for it!

 

[jonf]

Guys from the saxquest.com company answered my question. and this is what they said.

I agree it's a cool sax, but their estimate is at the top end of what you might achieve. They mention that is its value if the pads are in good order, but there's a lot more to it than that. It might just fetch that money if everything about the sax is in good condition, and it plays very well. If it needs work the value will halve, if it needs a full overhaul the value will be a quarter to a third of what Saxquest say.

 

[JayeNM]

Guys from the saxquest.com company answered my question. and this is what they said.

Oh, my LORD.... NO.

That was VERY BAD advice. Very inaccurate value estimate. Dunno what that guy is thinking.
These things do not remotely approach that market value, lol.

Yours is a New King from before they switched over to the more modern-style pinky table.
THOSE New Kings and ToneKings are worth maybe $900-1200 in good play shape - but they are much later, post-war, 1950's-70's.
Heck, ocassionally people can nab a Couf Superba 1, the most sought-after vintage Keilwerth, for $1400-1500.

There is no rareness to this model at all, and it's keywork is clunkier than the typical post-war Keilwerth. They are not 'bad'...but they aren't the kind of JK people are looking for.

Yours, if it plays, given the lacquer wear, is worth perhaps $500usd . If it has had a recent repad, worth perhaps $650, absolute tops.

If it does NOT play cleanly, and needs a servicing, worth maybe $250usd.

 

[thomsax]

Right now there is a Keilwerth "Toneking" model 2 ("silver", micro tuner, ...) here in Sweden. Needs some works .... but looks good. The price is c 450.00 dollar ( 5000.00 s e k ). The most sought after Keilwerths are Nauheim built. But Keilwerths goes for more money compared to other brands.

 

[Koshe1984]

Oh, my LORD.... NO.

That was VERY BAD advice. Very inaccurate value estimate. Dunno what that guy is thinking.
These things do not remotely approach that market value, lol.

Yours is a New King from before they switched over to the more modern-style pinky table.
THOSE New Kings and ToneKings are worth maybe $900-1200 in good play shape - but they are much later, post-war, 1950's-70's.
Heck, ocassionally people can nab a Couf Superba 1, the most sought-after vintage Keilwerth, for $1400-1500.

There is no rareness to this model at all, and it's keywork is clunkier than the typical post-war Keilwerth. They are not 'bad'...but they aren't the kind of JK people are looking for.

Yours, if it plays, given the lacquer wear, is worth perhaps $500usd . If it has had a recent repad, worth perhaps $650, absolute tops.

If it does NOT play cleanly, and needs a servicing, worth maybe $250usd.

I don't agree with you. An article on sasxpics.com says that this model is one of the best in the Keilwerth line.

 

[Phil]

J Typically knows sax values. You would be hard pressed to get that price in Europe for sure. I see prestine examples of various tone kings selling at 1500 euro or less. A thousand and below is common. You can always try but Id expect it to sit a really long time.

A big part of the price is going to be the condition of the pads and the overall amount of wear on rods and such. In the end the market will decide what it is worth.

 

[jonf]

I don't agree with you. An article on sasxpics.com says that this model is one of the best in the Keilwerth line.

That's just an expression of how much the writer likes the sax, which doesn't really translate into value.

The valuation you got from the writeer on Saxquest might just be attainable if the sax is in perfect condition, recently overhauled with any work completed to a high standard, and sold retail from an established retailer, with the accompanying consumer protection and a warranty. In a private sale? No way. If it needs any work at all, much less.

 

[Phil]

Yes, it might fetch that in the saxquest showroom after it has been in their tech.

Also Jay generally quotes prices where a horn will actually move. Not wish pricing.

I do think they can be great horns. They are somewhat undervalued for some reason.

 

[JayeNM]

I don't agree with you. An article on sasxpics.com says that this model is one of the best in the Keilwerth line.

You don't agree with me, ok - yet you have never serviced several, as I have. The early JK's are a bit primitive, honestly.

Plus, Saxpics information is way, way out of date. Pete Hales, it's original creator, started it 20+ years ago right at the time there was really no consolidated info on vintage, non-Selmer saxes....so in its time, it was quite an endeavor....but its info is old; many opinions made on there have been disproven or revised over a generation - and he sold it around 10 years ago to a sax shop which does not update it, he now concentrates his efforts ona much better sax site.

One would be, if not foolish, then ...naive...to buy one of these for more than $600, play-condition....especially when a slightly later Tone King or New King has much better keywork and key response, and they only cost a few hundred more.

Sellers and buyers in Europe certainly are aware of this.

It's a decent $500-600 used Tenor, basically. You can get that in an Amati, many a Weltklang, Evette, Malerne, etc. as well for that price and have just as good a Tenor.

But the 'what about these starts to set them apart ?' stuff didn't happen until series 3.

 

[thomsax]

"Best in the world", JK stamp. I have Keilwerth made saxes with both "Best in the world", JK stamp and without "Best in ...." just the JK stamp as shown above.
Pre WWII? A sax made in CZ?
Tonekings saxes have often a little bit better details than New Kings!?!

 

[peterpick]

in my view these are good horns, i had an alto at least and it was fine, played well, had a nice fat sound and those palm keys are lovely. but i don't think it's worth a whole lot of money, certainly the estimate from the USA will not apply in europe.

 

[JayeNM]

Tonekings saxes have often a little bit better details than New Kings!?!

Quite honestly, at least in my experience...the generalization isn't all that true. At times I have had Tonekings thru here which were indistinguishable from New Kings, other than what the engraving read.
Details changed thru the years a bit, though...but again, I never have comnected those detail changes to one model name as opposed to the other (?)

 

[peterpick]

at certain points tonekings have rolled toneholes and new kings do not..... i think. also tonekings can have extra trill keys. but sometimes the 2 models seem the same.

 

[JayeNM]

at certain points tonekings have rolled toneholes and new kings do not..... i think. also tonekings can have extra trill keys. but sometimes the 2 models seem the same.

Thx - I will look for this in the future

 

[peterpick]

i've got a mk 1 keilwerth, older than this one, made in czech. it is a bit clunky but has a fabulous raspy tone.

 

[wakyct]

Details changed thru the years a bit, though...but again, I never have comnected those detail changes to one model name as opposed to the other (?)

I've been following this thread with interest as I have a early 60s Keilwerth stencil, a Jean Barre alto (afaict from the serial # which may not relate to the Keilwerth numbers I guess), which I think is based on the New King? And it has rolled tone holes. I suppose tracking the detail changes across stencils might be even more difficult.