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Sanborn raspy

gladsaxisme

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Well I'm attempting to learn the dream as played by Mr Sanborn,great fun,this is going to take me some time but after having a go for some time I am very dissapionted with my tone,kind of smooth and sweet and a bit kind of orchestral which for a lot of things is OK but I feel this tune needs a more raspy tone can anybody recommend a mpc that might give a more raspy tone,I'm using the 62 alto with a Selmer S80 and rico jazz select 3m at the moment,I don't like metal mpc's by the way not keen on the metal in the mouth,ANY IDEAS......john
 

gladsaxisme

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Thanks Albert I take it you have something in mind, I will keep on trying to learn it,I was wondering if he just growled all the way through it....john
 

Koen88

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there is some growling and some multiphonics I think but he still uses a High baffle mpc (dont know what exactly..) A cheap High baffle alto mpc is a metalite (plastic) but they are hard to come buy (only ebay, they stopped producting alto pieces) or A Vandoren Jumbo mpc.

You wouldnt get the sound he gets, but still much closer than you would with a S80...
 

Dave McLaughlin

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A cheap High baffle alto mpc is a metalite (plastic) but they are hard to come buy (only ebay, they stopped producting alto pieces) or A Vandoren Jumbo mpc.
At the time of writing, amazon.co.uk has two Metalite alto M5s and four M7s in stock at £26.99, so I suspect they're still in production. I bought one from rapidreeds.com back in May - their stock changes almost daily, so it's worth checking frequently. One word of caution, though - I bought a Rico metal ligature to go with it, and it really doesn't work very well - the mouthpiece tapers so much that the lig tends to slip as I tighten it. I suspect a Rovner-style fabric lig would work much better.
 

spike

Old Indian
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Hi gladsax, You prob'ly need a Miami Vice white suit and a Ferrari for this -
Sanborn used to play a Dukoff in those days, whether he still does or not I know not. You may want to try playing a softer reed, they're more difficult to control but you can get a lot more harmonics out of softer reeds. The Dream is full of all kinds of tricky stuff, multiphonics, split tones, scoops and bends etc you name it. There's probably also a lot of electronic effects in there, from double tracking to maybe even a harmoniser/octivider.

Anyway - the Vandooren Jumbo suggestion from Koen may be a good option. But - You do need to try out mouthpieces - don't just buy blind. Also to get more harmonics out of the upper register try playing without the octave key and allow some the lower harmonics to come through that will rasp up the sound for sure - it may take a bit of practice though. A growl will add distortion to the sound because of the way it interrupts the airflow but I don't think Sanborn growls an awful lot.

The Dream is a beautiful melody, I'd start by getting the tune down and listen closely to the timing and phrasing etc. I don't know how you're going about learning this. My method would be to import the track into "Transcribe" on my mac, then split it up into beats and bars and sections and then just loop a few bars at a time, hit playback and play-a-long and listen very closely to what Sanborn is doing and very closely to what you are doing. Enough - I've been looking for motivation lately after a forced lay off of almost three years I think I'll go in the "woodshed" lock the door and give it a go. Better close the sunroof on the Ferrari first it looks like it might rain.

gruss - nach Manchester - Is Johnny Roadhouse still in business? - I bought my first tenor and a couple of Berg Larsens from him in the 60's - those were the days - hope to have helped with my ramble - gruss - spike
 

Saxlicker

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Thanks Albert I take it you have something in mind, I will keep on trying to learn it,I was wondering if he just growled all the way through it....john
Not growled exactly....
But the raspy sound is coming largely from him. You'd hear it it through your selmer too if he was behind it.
That said, there are pieces that will lend you a hand.
With out spending the earth, there are options but you have to try them to know.

If you have a listen to Wild World on my soundclick (see signature) you'll hear something along the same lines. Not the same by any stretch nor was it supposed to be.
But hopefully you'll hear what i'm talking about and why I drew the comparison.
My sound is more bright than raspy but you should pick it up in the background of the tone.
The mouthpiece would allow me to give it more in that department.
That is a Greg Wier NYMC (New york meyer copy) number 8 at the cost of £46 ish if I remember right.
Thats not a huge tip opening by the way. Their 8's are still smaller than a 7 link I think.

But hear the concept before you blow!
 
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gladsaxisme

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Great stuff Spike I like the Idea of the white suit and Ferrari,likewise I got my first sax the Elkhart from Johnny Roadhouse only about 5 yrs ago in my case and a great little sax it was too.Unfortunately Johnny passed over shortly after me acquiring my sax could have been the shock of me buying a sax.His son runs it now but by all accounts they are really struggling these days like a lot of other businesses.

I tend to learn these thing the way you say to do it a bit at a time and keep listening to Mr Sanborn doing it right,it tends to dive straight in with some great licks and unusual phrasing,well at least for me that is but I know I'll crack it in time and it's a challenge,my tutor has mentioned looping the recording in the past but I'm not sure how to do it,I just love the idea that I'll be able to play it something like him after a while,it was great to read your post and even better If it gets you blowing again.....All the best...John
 

gladsaxisme

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Thanks saxlicker

Just had a listen very nice playing I get what you mean now I'm going to listen to your other stuff.....John
 

altissimo

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Sanborn used a Dukoff D8 for a lot of his career, then changed to a Saxworks copy of a D8 - http://mouthpiecemuseum.com/MouthpieceMuseum/Saxworks.html
and now there's a David Sanborn model being made by Saxz in Japan - SaxZ Dave Sanborn Hard Rubber Alto Saxophone Mouthpiece
My experience of a Dukoff is that it does give you that Sanborn type tone, but you'd still need his technique to really play like him.

Since you don't want a metal mouthpiece, the Dukoff is out - unless you can find one of their old plastic Vibracoms, the Saxscape is $499 and also metal and the Saxz hard rubber is $385 - phew!!
The Rico metalite M5 is worth a try, otherwise talk to Damian Walker at Johnny Roadhouse - he knows his stuff and will let you try things out. Not sure if he's in there every day, so give him a call first. Can't guarantee they'll have something suitable in stock, but worth a try
 
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Saxlicker

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Thanks saxlicker

Just had a listen very nice playing I get what you mean now I'm going to listen to your other stuff.....John
No probs hope it helps, for more listening on manipulation of sound that is down to the player with shades of mouthpiece character coming through look on you tube for
Gato barbieri playing Europa with Santana.
I can't link it right now for you so you'll have to google it.
 

visionari1

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Good advice from Spike there John,
Several months ago my teacher commented to me about David Sandborn's (I've been learning Sandrorn's version of Tin tin Deo) sound as being very nasal, and had me sort of semi singing humming through my nose to get quite a change in the sound. It did change the sound, but was hard work and anyway I prefer a freer full tone, more natural sound.
But yes there is much to be gained by extremely close copying those you like, and best IMHO without reading the dots, just by ear.... Sing it first, copying the pitch and timing as exact as possible, even slow it down untill it's perfect, then play it by ear. This may sound hard and it is.... but am only just finding out this will give all the ease and freedom to learn and play with joy and ease.
Expect this to take allot of work, but the benefits will be huge.
Ciao
Jimu


Cheers & ciao
Jimu

"Together We Create Beauty"
 

aldevis

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My two pence...
In the past I had a crash on DS sound (we all thought that was the sound of future).

Playing with high baffle pieces is the direction. I guess you YAS62 can easily play in tune even with a Dukoff. my final choices were Guardala Studio (now quite expensive, I guess) and Vandoren Jumbo Java (they were horribly blue, at the time).

But...

A good Meyer-like piece (I am a supporter of Pillinger NYA) would put you in the right direction improving your all round dynamic range, compared with the sa80.

Moreover, Dukoff mouthpieces negatively affect your marital and social life.
 

Koen88

Sax Drinker / Beer player
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426
At the time of writing, amazon.co.uk has two Metalite alto M5s and four M7s in stock at £26.99, so I suspect they're still in production. I bought one from rapidreeds.com back in May - their stock changes almost daily, so it's worth checking frequently. One word of caution, though - I bought a Rico metal ligature to go with it, and it really doesn't work very well - the mouthpiece tapers so much that the lig tends to slip as I tighten it. I suspect a Rovner-style fabric lig would work much better.
Ah I misread this somewhere I think, it seems that they arent producing the M11 (.110) anymore. Those pop op on ebay every monht or so... Now that`s a paint peeler! (larger than my tenor piece!)
 

gladsaxisme

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Sanborn used a Dukoff D8 for a lot of his career, then changed to a Saxworks copy of a D8 - http://mouthpiecemuseum.com/MouthpieceMuseum/Saxworks.html
and now there's a David Sanborn model being made by Saxz in Japan - SaxZ Dave Sanborn Hard Rubber Alto Saxophone Mouthpiece
My experience of a Dukoff is that it does give you that Sanborn type tone, but you'd still need his technique to really play like him.

Since you don't want a metal mouthpiece, the Dukoff is out - unless you can find one of their old plastic Vibracoms, the Saxscape is $499 and also metal and the Saxz hard rubber is $385 - phew!!
The Rico metalite M5 is worth a try, otherwise talk to Damian Walker at Johnny Roadhouse - he knows his stuff and will let you try things out. Not sure if he's in there every day, so give him a call first. Can't guarantee they'll have something suitable in stock, but worth a try
Thanks altissimo

Some really pricey stuff in there isn't there I take it the saxscape is solid gold then or it ought to be:shocked:..john
 
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Greg Strange

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Dave Sanborn used a Brilhart Levelaire mouthpiece from his time with The Butterfield Blues Band in the mid 1960s to the late 1970s,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip6g7IyX0j0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4GNci5koi8

and then apparently his gold-plated Mark VI alto with Brilhart mouthpiece was stolen, and then started playing a 62 series Yamaha alto with a Bobby Dukoff mouthpiece until he acquired his current Mark VI in 1983.

A couple of suggestions have included the king of non-metal screamers the Van Doren Jumbo Java, the Rico Metalite designed by the late Arnold (Brilhart) himself and a few other mouthpieces I suggest to try are the Beechler S5S or S6S (check out Derek Nash on alto), Rousseau Studio Jazz (SJ) or JDX (Jazz) series. I currently play a Rousseau JDX 8 which I describe as a Meyer 6M with a bit of a edge - it has a baffle which could give you what you want. I think Pete tested a JDX 7 on his alto mouthpiece comparisons page review. Another suggestion is a Runyon Bionix.

After owning all Sanborn's albums and others as a sideman (e.g. Butterfield Blues Band, Stevie Wonder, Linda Ronstadt, James Taylor, Elton John, the Stones, Esther Phillips, Gil Evans, etc) and literally listening to thousands of hours of his sax, I wouldn't say he growls he tends to use what people call a "spilt tone" which appears he forces more air through the horn on higher notes like high F, F# and into the altissimo range. Actually Eric Marienthal wrote in a Saxophone Journal article about 15 years about how he achieves the same sound concept. I'll dig out the article sometime this weekend and post something in the technique page.

Anyway enjoy this...scroll down to "The Dream" video...

http://www.facebook.com/davidsanb

Regards,


Greg S.
 
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gladsaxisme

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Hi Greg

Thanks for all the info,do you know I had no idea David Sanborn had been going that long,how old is the man,I've never seen a clip where he looks much older than mid to late forties.really enjoyed watching that clip I noticed the phrasing was slghtly different than others I have listened to,he seems to go off to his own place when he plays,a great tune,I love it....john
 

spike

Old Indian
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2,263
Here's some split tone info

http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.PAGE?ActiveID=1142&IType=3&MediaId=268&MediaType=2
 
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Greg Strange

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2,077
Hi Greg

Thanks for all the info,do you know I had no idea David Sanborn had been going that long,how old is the man,I've never seen a clip where he looks much older than mid to late forties.really enjoyed watching that clip I noticed the phrasing was slghtly different than others I have listened to,he seems to go off to his own place when he plays,a great tune,I love it....john
Hey John,

Sanborn turned 67 on the 30th of July just gone...

I'm glad you found some of my info helpful - I'm always happy to help...

Here's some other stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1TR4R1Mmso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdX9roN_3kg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lNZjtBnITM

this is the real sh*t...

Sanborn's been playing for over 55 years - so keep up the practice John:)

give it a few weeks and you should be good,

Cheers,

Greg S.
 
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