Playing Rhythmic patterns?

[mizmar]

So, for various reasons I started drifting down a rabbit hole, I don't really have the language to ask about...

So, in many traditions, music seems to be underpinned by medium long, repeated, and sometimes quite complex rhythmic patterns - clave and such in South American, iqa‘at in middle eastern... etc.

However, I almost never seem to see such patterns discussed in western (jazz, classic) learning material unless the piece is specifically latin or such like... ok, there are feels (waltz, march, compound time, and I do learn rhythms lick shapes of a bar or two for noodling purposes
..

Am I missing something in the western tradition?
I'm sure percussionists know all about this, but it doesn't seem to be common currency...
I'm sorry if that's a bit vague, like I said, I don't even really have the language to ask.


As some of the background to this question;
The other week we had a concert by Mexican group, Klezmerson... who also held a workshop. At one point the leader asked the drummer to explain what they where doing and they had a long conversation about using some pattern or other, how that changes across the country, god knows. Eastern European it was not, oy gevalt!

Anyway, I just bought a small drum (darbuka) to learn some Dum Tik Tas on

 

[Pete Effamy]

In my experience drummers in jazz are fairly aware of quite a variety of different Latin grooves - which us horn players usually just refer to as plain old Latin.

Players from South America or Cuba know a myriad of variations though.

 

[mizmar]

I'd assumed so.

But discussion of such things comes up vary rarely - here for example.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Am I missing something in the western tradition?

Interesting… was there clave in South America before there was an African influence on account of slaves being imported? We tend to think of American clave to be in 4/4 but African clave to be in 6/8. Well I do anyway but I’m often known to be wrong.

But discussion of such things comes up vary rarely - here for example.

Until now! 🙂

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’m ducking out now as I’ve told you everything I know on this subject ie that I know that other people know about it.

 

[mizmar]

was there clave in South America before there was an African influence

I don't know - maybe some reading to do - I'm guessing that some of the rhythmic patterns are dance related? ritual dance?
Maybe they became less important in societies with more subdued Church going...

 

[Colin the Bear]

Funk, soul, blues, reggae. It's called a groove man. Nile Rogers has it down.

 

[mizmar]

Funk, soul, blues, reggae. It's called a groove man. Nile Rogers has it down.

Well exactly. They, and others, have groove... but which? In many African, South and central American, middle eastern, Indian etc traditions folks (not just percussionists) will go "oh yeah, that's Malfuf" or "... Son clave" or whatever...

 

[Dr G]

You have an idea of what to explore, I suggest you pick one to start and dig into it. Google “how to play clave rhythm”, then find a percussionist you don’t mind learning from.

Here’s a start:

View: https://youtu.be/DZok3MaiiD4?si=4x1q5OmEzCrYLLRd

 

[skeller047]

Also check here. The links in this page discuss specific dances, and show the rhythms that various instruments play

Dance from Cuba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are less formal names for jazz rhythms, like “4 on the floor”, “light swing”, “2-beat”, “straight ahead” and so on. I learned these by playing with people that knew them. I’ve not seen these named specifically in drum books, but I’m not a drummer. The feel and practice of them does vary somewhat by region - though this is less true now than when I was a young player trying to get every gig I could.

 

[mizmar]

I suggest you pick one to start and dig into it.

Absolutely (Even though "how do I lean" wasn't the question of the thread). As I mentioned, I've just got a darbuka and found a fine pedagogical online source. There's one guy I know who gives kids workshop on cajon and another with a basement full of djembe! But I'm not going to become a percussionist... this is just for some insight; and, one never knows, some improvement in my time feel.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just thought I’d clarify as we are mentioning clave a lot, that there is in general a misconception that clave is per se a rhythm.

On one very basic level it can be, but that is misleading because the term is more accurately used to describe a pattern of accents that exists within a huge variety of diverse “clave based rhythms.”

And those different clave based can be varied in rhythm, feel and time signature. Even the clave pattern itself can be either 2-3 or 3-2.

(where one bar has two accents often on beat and the other bar has three more syncopated)

It is a feature of hugely diverse rhythms including mambo, hip hop, prog rock, bossa nova, EDM and more...

 

[skeller047]

I had a student once who hired me to bring my band and play at his birthday party, we played in his back yard. The highlight of the party for me and the party goers was when the drummer and I did a duo set. Playing with just a drummer really requires you to pay attention to the rhythm. Maybe try to do some duos with a conga drummer, you will get a different idea of time that way.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Just thought I’d clarify as we are mentioning clave a lot, that there is in general a misconception that clave is per se a rhythm.

On one very basic level it can be, but that is misleading because the term is more accurately used to describe a pattern of accents that exists within a huge variety of diverse “clave based rhythms.”

And those different clave based can be varied in rhythm, feel and time signature. Even the clave pattern itself can be either 2/3 or 3/2.

(where one bar has two accents often on beat and the other bar has three more syncopated)

It is a feature of hugely diverse rhythms including mambo, hip hop, prog rock, bossa nova, EDM and more...

I fully concur. Years ago, having called my feature on a regular gig and requesting a Latin groove, I got a bit of a lecture from the drummer. After a jam-packed minute or so of much information I stared back and requested “a Bossa?”

 

[Pete Thomas]

I got a bit of a lecture from the drummer.

I was given a lecture by a percussionist on a session once. After listening through to the track he asked me if I wanted him to do it standing on his head. Why? I asked

"Because you've got a 3:2 crossing 2:3" - which is huge nono to the experts because you must either have a 2:3 or a 3:2.

I get his point now, it does mess up the overall rhythmic pattern. Never ver cross the Clave

From: How to Hear the Clave in Salsa

The Spanish word for being the wrong side of clave is cruzado (which means “crossed”), although there are much ruder, more contemptuous terms for the same condition (I’ve been called most of them). This means being a whole bar out. But I’ve often seen dancers, and very accomplished ones, go one worse and start not only on the wrong bar, but on the wrong beat, sometimes even the wrong half-beat. Don’t know what you’d call that – if we’re being polite, maybe supercruzado?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Dancers! I was playing for a show years ago and during the dress rehearsal the choreographer asked “can we have a bit more” after we finished playing and the dancers had a few moves left.
The M.D politely offered 4 bars or 8 bars to which the reply was “how much is that?”.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Ooo, worse than that - whilst working on a BBC radio show in which pop artists would guest with the house band each week, we were told that contrary to previous conversations about their current song arrangements ours were out of date - everything was wrong. The artist’s MD (their own anointed title) came up with a solution - “just groove it man” (we were a 11-piece band containing horns and backing singers as well as rhythm section).

This remains the best one I’ve ever heard/been part of.

 

[mizmar]

“just groove it man”

It's called a groove man

Have you two met? In a radio studio?

 

[rhysonsax]

Very interesting discussion so far.

My old saxophone teacher had an interesting approach to teaching (jazz) improvisation that covered simultaneously the pitches and possible rhythms.

As a simplified description, the pitch part came from thinking about different pentatonics (not just major and minor pentatonics, but several other five note scales) that "work" against different harmony, some with more tension than others.

The rhythm part used as a starting point some written rhythms from the Louis Bellson book "Modern Reading Text in 4/4". This book starts simple but rapidly gets more complex, with syncopation and uncommon rhythms.

I found that approach to be really helpful to get away from just running scales with almost endless quavers (eighth notes), and also getting more interesting rhythms really locked in with the time. And if worked at diligently, it helped to build up a big vocabulary of rhythmic phrases of two and four bar duration.

Rhys

 

[mizmar]

The Encyclopedia Britannica seems to agree with

Maybe they became less important in societies with more subdued Church going..

Musical performance - Medieval Instruments, Chant, Troubadours | Britannica

Musical performance - Medieval Instruments, Chant, Troubadours: The tradition of sung prayers and psalms extends into the shadows of early civilization. Such sacred singing was often accompanied by instruments, and its rhythmic character was marked. In the synagogue, however, the sung prayers...

www.britannica.com

However,. Re regarding Gregorian chant

The authentic rhythmic style of chant cannot be ascertained. There is a theory, however, that the basic rhythmic units had the same durational value and were grouped in irregularly alternating groups of twos and threes.

So, some kind of Clave?

Even the clave pattern itself can be either 2-3 or 3-2.

😉