Beginner Replacing corks and felts; basics?

[mizmar]

Ok, so the scruffy sax (Vito yts 23ish) occasionally sheds bits of cork or felt; it's an age thing, I guess. I've done some running repairs with whatever sticky/padded stuff I've had to hand; but now the situation is not brilliant with - otherwise apparently good - pads not closing properly and lots of clunking. I can solve some of it by adjusting skrews but it's not great.

I Think I'm up to replacing this stuff - at least what I can without removing keywork, but I'm not sure what stock I should readily have to hand. Sheets of corks of what thickness? Felt? Contact cement? And tools? Sandpaper? Etc.

I'd appreciate any thoughts of what to get in before I start. Also any "the knack" thoughts!
cheers

 

[turf3]

Sheet cork in several thicknesses. Music Medic sells an assortment.

Felts in several thicknesses. Music Medic ditto.

Sandpaper - I typically use 120 grit (US) for shaping and for adjusting the thickness (put it between the two parts with grit against the cork, close lightly, pull out, repeat as many times as needed). I use wet or dry paper, not woodworking sandpaper. Tear into long thin strips to get into the keywork.

Of course you'll need some appropriate screwdrivers.

I make my own spring hooks - 1) bend a wee little hook on the end of a paper clip; 2) take a cheap thin bladed screwdriver and file a notch right in the center of the blade. With these two you can pretty much unhook any saxophone spring.

The only cement I use is Weldwood Contact Cement - not the "toluene free" variety which is NG, but the "toluene containing" variety. Unfortunately if you're located in Norway I have no idea what's available to you there, and I doubt the American stuff can be shipped easily to you. Whatever kind of contact cement you use, buy small containers because the solvent dries off pretty fast and leaves you with a thick paste that's the very devil to try to work with. The stuff will go bad way before you ever use it up.

Make sure to apply a THIN film of contact cement to both sides of the joint and let it get DRY before you put them together. And make sure the surfaces are truly clean. Use isopropyl alcohol - it won't attack a lacquer finish. If it is silver plated or nickel plated, you can clean with acetone which is even better, but it'll eat your lacquer.

 

[saxyjt]

As I drink wine on a regular basis, I have no trouble sourcing cork! 😉

As for felt, I got my hands on a piece of adhesive felt that I have been using ever since. Really handy. Just cut small piece and there you go. Mostly to quiet things, but also to add an extra layer between the body and an existing piece of cork.

Pattex contact cement or similar does the trick for me.

Sand paper, small files and a cutter of course.

 

[jbtsax]

A "needle vice" or "pig sticker" as my repair mentor called them are handy when gluing and inserting felt and cork pieces---especially with the keys on the saxophone. The photos below show how I make them. You can substitute a wooden dowel if you don't have a used drumstick laying around. Also are some photos of a homemade spring hook made with a #8 crochet hook. To "push" springs you can file the end flat and add a "V" notch. (My next installment will be to show how to make a "feeler gauge" from an old Kenny G cassette tape. 🙂)

 

[mizmar]

Hummm.... I was toying with the idea of the Musicmedic "big boy your-first saxophone repair kit" to save having to buy lots of various bits... but I have most the tools... now I see they have an "upgrade kit" ... all the bits, no tools. I don't need replacement pads, but maybe, one day.

Dawks only do 100off variety packs of corks and of felts... which adds up to much more $£€

The key gard buffers are a real disaster, some missing, others growing illegal substances. the pad that presses down the the G# went flying, and the corks on the crazy mechanism on the lower left that cross links just about everything are very compressed. Lots of little things.

 

[PigSquealer]

Get a hammer and three pints. Place in wood A wood crate. Then nail shut with the hammer. Ship to Steve you will be able to enjoy the three-pints

 

[mizmar]

Get a hammer and three pints. Place in wood A wood crate. Then nail shut with the hammer. Ship to Steve you will be able to enjoy the three-pints

As mentioned above, I'm located in Norway. As a consequence the pints are tragically expensive and not much better than a Double Diamond... It really make you wonder. So, not a great solution for me. Glad, all the same, your pints have hit the mark 🙂

 

[JayeNM]

Honestly....it's time to get past the 'scared to disassemble' thing....if you intend on replacing cork and felt. Yeah, it can be done but really...if you are at the point hwere you are replacing regulating materials...take the horn apart, IMHO. Do some quick research on how to disassemble and reassemble.
Then everything becomes accessible.

 

[mizmar]

scared to disassemble

Scared is a bit of an exaggeration. I have a good and engineering brain but rubbish engineering fingers. Not like my mate who's misses banned super glue from the house; but not great.
I'm heading for some light dismantling, but don't fancy getting too lost in the more complex mechanisms. Just yet, anyway.

 

[Colin the Bear]

The thing about a saxophone is that each piece will only go in one place.
Take photos with your phone before you take anything off.
Clear out a drawer for all the bits and pieces you're going to accumulate and those little kitchen storage boxes are very handy but label them so you don't have to root.
A watch strap replacement tool will double as a small spring hook.
Self adhesive stuff is great for running repairs but superglue is king.
Sheets of cork in various thicknesses on ebay. Also pads felt springs etc
Often cheaper to buy a set and store the unused bits than to buy one of a thing.
My house is nearly full btw. 😉

 

[mizmar]

I plonked for the MusicMedic my-first-saxophone repair kit. It's a little expensive, maybe, but I appreciate the philosophy that it contains just what you need to do a few simple jobs. (Sourced from Dawks, so it's the old box, apparently) Had a first go...

One of the things the kit doesn't contain is something quite right to replace the G# adjuster cork, which somehow blew-up on the scruffy sax some time ago and has been a bit of sticky pad since. It seems to be a tiny cork cylinder shape. So I had to carve something out of a wine bottle cork... always a good excuse. A bit of bodging by a cack handed person and voila! A random shaped polygon!! Seems to work, though. Maybe I'll patent it... and yes!! the dread G#/Bb mechanism still works!!
Otherwise I replace a bumper on the bell Bb. I also gave "fluffing" (oh er, missus) pads a bit of a go on some lowerstack / bell key pads I knew where less than perfect. A butane torch (well, glorified cigarette lighter) and some sharp objects... what could possibly go wrong?! They are still less than perfect, but much better and undamaged and nothing caught fire!!. Seems to be a worthwhile technique to practice a little here and there.

Still many feet to go... probably requiring some key removal. So I'll probably do a clean-and-lube job on those rods and pistons at the same time.

onwards and upwards.

 

[jbtsax]

For bis and G# adjustment corks I use a Tandy Leather Punch to cut the needed diameter and length from either regular cork or tech cork.

 

[mizmar]

For bis and G# adjustment corks I use a Tandy Leather Punch to cut the needed diameter and length from either regular cork or tech cork.

Cooll!
I'll keep an eye out for something like that.

 

[mizmar]

Blimey!
So a felt that needed replacing is under the A key that closes Bb(bis) and A - if I've understood... So, with the leak-light the bis closes nicely and with a little fettling, so does A... But getting them to close together when A is pressed seems quite finely balanced! I think, with a teensy-tiny bit of gentle bending they look good with the light and play nicely. But is that the right approach?

Some cork feet etc still to do; But, with all the keys now having had a good looking at it's playing much better. I know it's just a Vito and a YTS23 underneath; but this work is bringing out its inner YTS62SiiiEX

 

[turf3]

Blimey!
So a felt that needed replacing is under the A key that closes Bb(bis) and A - if I've understood... So, with the leak-light the bis closes nicely and with a little fettling, so does A... But getting them to close together when A is pressed seems quite finely balanced! I think, with a teensy-tiny bit of gentle bending they look good with the light and play nicely. But is that the right approach?

Some cork feet etc still to do; But, with all the keys now having had a good looking at it's playing much better. I know it's just a Vito and a YTS23 underneath; but this work is bringing out its inner YTS62SiiiEX

I believe that particular linkage the Bb bis is on a different axle than the A. Professional repairers generally use felt here because there's a small sliding motion between the keys. Myself, I use cork under the A key because it can be sanded to give a precise adjustment without the need for bending parts. The amount of sliding motion is small enough that I've not noticed any issue; and if there were, I'd apply a bit of cork grease.

 

[mizmar]

Well, that was an exciting first for me!
I removed the lower stack D/E/F/F# keys, rod etc. and gave them new cork feet (thicker cork than I got with MM kit, so I used a wine bottle artificial cork) and some thin cork on the top for the adjustment screws; cleaned the rod and a drop of light oil (from the MM kit) reassembled (word to the wise, ensure the springs are on the correct side of the mettle work to avoid having to start over), reset all the adjustment screws on the weird G#/Bb cross bar etc. and it plays again!
Amazingly, no screw or widget left behind with nowhere to go!!

So, I was wondering. Is there a "right" order to set the adjustment screws?
I did something like:

• loosened then G#&/Bb screws quite far
• set the cross-bar screws so that F,E and D close the F# hole without being kept open.
• set the Bb screw so it closes nicely without keeping anything open
• same with G# screw.

that got me 90% of the way there.

 

[jbtsax]

@mizmar it sounds like you are off to a great start. Congratulations. I'm not sure there is a "right or wrong" order, but this is what I have come up with "to date" that works for me: (other techs may have a method that works best for them)

• Seat the F#,F,E,D,G#,Bis pads to close perfectly on their own with light finger pressure and spring attached
• Regulate the F to close the F#, then E to close the F#, then the D to close the F# (lightly)
• Regulate the F# to close the G# first by closing the keycup and then checking by pressing the F and the E
• Regulate the F# to close the Bis in the same manner as above
• Re-check the F# to G# after adjusting the Bis

I have found that perfect regulation requires precise key fitting, tonehole leveling, and pad leveling
I like to use regular 1/16" cork on the feet of keys and then sand with 400 grit to remove lost motion.
I set the F key to the desired opening which determines the opening of the other lower and upper stack keys.
I like to use thin synthetic felt from JL Smith that is "hammered" to reduce compressibility on the tops of key feet because it is durable, stable, and quiet.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Regulating the D to Aux.F (or F#) often requires a bit of not-by-the-book tweakery.
On a horn with perfect action, toneholes and pads you can indeed set it so that it closes the Aux.F...or at least very lightly so - but on most horns out there in the wild such a practice will typically lead to the D pad being 'held off'. You might not notice if if you're a bit heavy-handed, but if playing with a light touch (or at speed) you might find some hesitancy is introduced.
The way I set the D up on such horns is to hold down the F and E keys, the keep an eye on the Aux.F regulation bar as I press the D down....and then set the regulation so that the bar doesn't move at all when the D comes down. More often than not this results in a gap of about 1mm between the Aux.F pad and its tonehole when the D alone is pressed down.
It means you won't be able to get a clean 'flute F#' (which few, if any, sax players use) - but it will give you a much more responsive lower stack.

It's also the case that regulating the stack keys will usually require some tweaking in conjunction with play-testing the horn to get the very best results. What might be perfect on paper won't necessarily give you the best response in practice.
The BIG thing to watch out for on the lower stack is that the Aux. F key isn't able to move backwards on its pivot.
Just grab the key cup and push it backwards (towards the pillars). Keep a close eye on where its key barrel butts up against the lead pillar of the stack. If you can see the barrel moving back and forth it means that there's either wear on the key barrel or wear in the pillar - or perhaps even both.
With such movement in the keywork it'll be a proper nightmare trying to set the stack regulation up with regard to the G# - and you'll need to dial in some compromises to make things work reasonably well. It's a damn fiddly job...especially if you don't have regulation adjuster fitted on the horn.

 

[mizmar]

some hesitancy is introduced

That's exactly the missing 10% I found!!
After the first go, D failed totally. With some adjustment it got hesitant... so from B/C/A/G down to F, F# or E was clean, but to D glitched.
I just loosened the D regulator screw round the back (well, I don't have the habit of playing low D without E and F for F#, anyway, as you say)... but I'll review the setup following your post.
cheers.

 

[Stephen Howard]

That's exactly the missing 10% I found!!

cheers.

There ya go! And now that you've experienced the effect, and how to dial it out, it'll become part of you standard setup routine. There are lots of such techniques; blowing a low D/C and flicking the G# key while listening for a change of tone, playing a low B while nudging the low C# key, checking a long Bb (rh/lh forefingers) etc.
Over time you build a portfolio of such tests...and it's also useful to stick to a small selection of test riffs, just for consistency's sake.