Relaxing for Palm Key Notes

[cjR]

I'm looking for tips, exercises, or just ideas/notions folks have used in the past in their own playing or with their students to get the feel of a very relaxed embouchure.

I'm a returning Alto player, it's taken a while to get my palm key notes sounding good/ok with a full enough sound. I was making my embouchure too tight for a while (I could see it in a mirror and feel it) - through some combo of full range long tones focussing on the same embouchure all the way from low Bb, overtones and whatever else that's gotten a lot better. The problem is my intonation is off and soon as a get into the high register things get very sharp. From something like +/- 10 cents to + 40/50 cents.

I'm looking for ways to get the feel of playing with a looser/more relaxed embouchure even if it's exaggerated, thinking that might help. Appreciate any advice.

 

[Colin the Bear]

The mention of cents and numbers means to me a guitar tuner is being used. Put it away. It'll drive you mad.

It's very easy to get into the habit of squeezing the high notes out. Pushing and straining. Instead think low, while playing high. Use the same embouchure shape you use for subtoning and let them happen. No push. No squeeze. Play them a little quieter too. Blow long tones and see how far you can bend each palm note down.

If your top end, short tube, notes are still sharp, pull out a little.

There's lots of threads on here about tuning the horn. A slight correction at the top may have little effect lower down.

Overblow your long tube notes to match the natural fingering for that note.

Use C1 fingering and overblow to C2 G2 and C3.

 

[skeller047]

If you use a drone to play long tones, you can lock in the tuning way easier. You adjust the pitch so it blends with the drone.

My drones on Soundcloud:

https://soundcloud.com/skeller047%2Fsets%2Fdroneology

View: https://soundcloud.com/skeller047/sets/droneology
are a good resource, I used a nice string sample for these. Listen for beats, and adjust so they are gone and it seems like the sound of your sax plus the drone gets bigger. In other words, use your ears for tuning, not your eyes.

 

[mizmar]

are a good resource

Fantastisk.

I I've use the drone set of Robert Buckland. But these are great!

Post in thread 'Another Embouchure Question (sorry, not sorry)' Tone - Another Embouchure Question (sorry, not sorry) - Cafesax

 

[cjR]

The mention of cents and numbers means to me a guitar tuner is being used. Put it away. It'll drive you mad.

I use the tuner very little I promise 🙂

Thanks for the tips, I'll try it all out

 

[Guenne]

Palm key pitch bends.
Play a palm key note, let's say Eb, then play palm D (with regular fingerings). Then play palm Eb again, but see if you can bend it down to D and up again. Repeat on the other palmkey tones.
If that works, try a wholetone or even a minor third 🙂
This will do miracles on the fullness of the higher notes.

Forget about tuners, and IMHO forget everything about "loose embouchure", as this is relative.
You can sound great and in tune with a firmer embouchure, and bad with a loose embouchure.
Having said that it of course depends on a good horn that plays in tune and a decent pitch center you are playing on.

Good luck, Guenne

 

[cjR]

Palm key pitch bends

Nice, thanks for the idea !

 

[Pete Thomas]

Nice, thanks for the idea !

When people say pitch bends they tend to think of lower jaw. Once you are up into palm keys it’s a lot more complex and oral cavity comes more into play. Best thing to practice for that is the mouthpiece exercises.

 

[David Roach]

I recommend the overtone pitch-matching exercises that (AFAIK) originate with Sigurd Rascher in his 'Top Tones for Saxophones' book (which is really the seminal manual for learning to play in the altissimo).
Other players have re-worked those ideas: David Liebman has written about it, and more recently Ben Wendell who is an extremely good younger player.

I suggest you look here and buy Ben's the 'Path to Altissimo'. Although your question is about palm key intonation, not about altissimo, the technique is one and the same thing. Practising these exercises will help to educate your vocal cavity and embouchure to form the correct environment to allow the sax to play better in tune and with a good focused sound.
I've been playing professionally since 1976 and I still find these exercises invaluable.

 

[cjR]

very helpful call outs around the importance of voicing here, thanks all, I'll keep plugging away.

 

[Guenne]

'Top Tones for Saxophones'

Although he talks about the thesis of changing air speed by voicing which is obviously wrong (see Dr. Mark Watkins' "From the inside out"), there are some very helpful exercises in Ben Britton's pdf "A complete approach to overtones", which can be bought here and is worth much more than 10 Dollars.