Saxophones Ref54 Alto vs. SA80II... which is "best"?

[DavidUK]

I found this:

View: https://youtu.be/2IU5Xndu1Tg



I had a lovely SA80II years ago but stupidly sold it. But is the Ref54 "better" or just different? It's supposedly a modern MkVI but I already know I'd like another SA80II.

Should I consider the Ref54 instead? I liked the SA80II's warm, flexible, sound. Will the 54 encompass this?

Why am I after one? To put my pads in... yep, a leap of faith after the Jupiter's recent success. It shows off the pads, but put into a well regarded pro horn it may show them off to a greater degree.

Comments from those who have owned/played and compared both models would be invaluable.

Thanks all.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Have owned a Ref 54 and Mk6 tenor. They are not alike.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But is the Ref54 "better" or just different? It's supposedly a modern MkVI but I already know I'd like another SA80II.

It’s just different and is not a modern MKVI

Get the one you like best.

 

[Trigger]

Got both , both are great horns SA 80 seems more focused sound , 54 has a similar tone to a vintage Selmer but do prefer my mkvi’s and SBA’s , on my stands at present is a 67 ( sanborn era ) Mkvi , a 62 Mkvi which Paul Carrington rebuilt , 54 SBA and a Yanagisawa A880 ,
My problem is I can’t stop collecting 😜🤣

 

[peedeeblues]

I play a Ref.54 tenor and keep a mark 6 tenor and have trouble telling the difference in sound between the two and really didn’t much care. I bought the Ref. 54 because it was new and I just wanted a new horn.

 

[rhysonsax]

The thread title and the video are about alto. In my experience Selmer alto and tenor of the same series can have different characteristics, at least in the detail, so it is worth keeping comments about alto. Or at least making clear if any comparisons apply to A, T or both.

Rhys

 

[jonf]

I've long thought that once you get to this sort of level of saxophone, there is no such thing as 'better', just individual player preferences.

One thing I do think about Selmer and the Ref 54 is that their marketing is a bit pathetic. They're trying to wheedle a bit more money by relying on a marketing reference to a sax introduced nearly 70 years ago. Doesn't say much about their confidence in their abilities to stand alongside other pro sax makers if they need to rely on a marketing reference to an instrument bulit a lifetime ago.

Selmer are also noteworthy in that their prices, adjusted for inflation, have continued to go up, whereas other pro sax makers, by and large, have stayed at the same price point in real terms.

 

[David Roach]

I have owned, and played professionally both the SA80 Mk2 and the Ref54 at great length.
My experience is that in general terms I have grown to prefer the sound of the Ref54 because it's more compact than the SA80, but the SA80 can have an amazing depth and warmth and is probably the meatiest sounding Selmer alto.

Both instruments had/have intonation challenges, however I found that with my particular SA80 I was constantly fighting the instrument's tendancy to be generally sharp in the whole of the upper octave. I think the philosophy behind the development of Selmer's saxes from the Mk7 onwards was that it is easier to make an even scale if the upper octave has a general tendancy to sharpness, whereas the Ref54 is generally more comfortable over the octaves but less even intonation-wise ('a bit squirelly' is how some people describe it) than the SA80 which creates its own challenges.

The SA80 has a horrible tendancy to grumble on the middle G#, the Ref54 having tighter octaves, does not. My particular SA80 had a pitch difference between its very flat middle C# and its sharp middle E that - if played without corrrecting - was at least a quarter-tone wide. This is a general characteristic on all saxes of course, but the Ref54 is much closer than my SA80 was.

I sold my SA80 alto and moved to a Series 3. I absolutely loathed and hated the Series 3 alto, so I sold it and bought a Yamaha EX which was a huge relief. I then found a good Mk6 which I played happily until I dropped it on a stone floor. I then got my Ref54 direct from Selmer and I still have it and like it. I also have a Sequoia alto which is excellent, like a SA80 but far superior.

If you're interested, here's a recording on my SA80
And here's one on my Ref54

 

[SaxBoss]

I don't know about the two you compare, as I don't have them.
I'm also an outlier. I'm about to make a statement that will be shot down/machine gun style. BUT the two horns I do have are the SA80II and the 114k MKVI.
The SA80II is better and is a pleasure to play, Period. Appologise for offending anyone in advance.

For reference - I'm talking about the Alto.

 

[DavidUK]

Thanks to all so far. Let me explain a little more...

Although my pads work faultlessly (so far) in the revised 767 Jupiter alto, the two pros who played them recently, and others I've spoken with in the last week, have all said I should put them in a pro horn to show them off to their best advantage.

So it's not so much what I like, though I know my SA80II was great, it's what any player would be more likely to prefer when trying it out. I favour the 80 as I'd ultimately be left with it when the demo-ing has died down. I sold the 80 when I bought my '58 SDA which is just a good (no high F#) but even if I re-padded that it still won't have the same stature as a Selmer to many out there.

Which is the more universally acclaimed model? Faced with both, which would you be keenest to pick up?

I'm not looking for a MkVI as I'm aware they can be moody from horn to horn. I've had two Yani altos and they left me a little cold. Yamahas are fine, I have four, but a little run of the mill may I say?

There are other brands which are well regarded, but Selmer does still seem to be the iconic name.

 

[rhysonsax]

......

One thing I do think about Selmer and the Ref 54 is that their marketing is a bit pathetic. They're trying to wheedle a bit more money by relying on a marketing reference to a sax introduced nearly 70 years ago. Doesn't say much about their confidence in their abilities to stand alongside other pro sax makers if they need to rely on a marketing reference to an instrument bulit a lifetime ago.

.......

I think their introduction of the Reference series and the way that Selmer marketed them is a natural response to seeing the used prices of the MkVI, SBA and maybe BA horns climbing higher and higher, and all those sales not directly benefitting Selmer's bottom line.

The company remained confident enough to continue to innovate and introduce new models, but they just wanted a slice of the action associated with the sentiments around their own vintage designs.

Rhys

PS In answer to @DavidUK I would say you can't go wrong with a Selmer Serie II alto for demonstrating your pads. You (especially) should be able to pick one up for a decent price and be confident that it will retain its value.

 

[Pete Thomas]

the two pros who played them recently, and others I've spoken with in the last week, have all said I should put them in a pro horn to show them off to their best advantage.

I disagree entirely. Any pro should be able to discern how pads are working on any kind of horn.

 

[jonf]

Well, if you think that players will be impressed that a sax is a Selmer, then I'd say get an SA80. I certainly wouldn't see any benefit in paying the premium for a Ref 54. What I would say is that although your SA80II was great, that doesn't guarentee that another will be. Selmer don't have the same sort of consitency that Yamaha and Yanagisawa have.

Personally I'd be thinking about this in the same way as, say, buying a pair of studio monitors. What you'd want is neutral quality, rather than 'character'. For me, that would mean a Yamaha YAS62 or a Yanagisawa A901.

 

[DavidUK]

I disagree entirely. Any pro should be able to discern how pads are working on any kind of horn.

How they're working, yes. But after the mechanics are found to be acceptable comes the sound and other attributes of an individual model.

Having worked extensively on the Jupiter 767 it's actually very well built and specified but I can't claim it'll blow away an SA80II or Ref54 for sound, flexibility, ergonomics etc.

Yes, a pro player should be able to play any well set up horn well but surely they're at their best on a pro horn? Or maybe it's a little to do with the subconscious thought that it can't be the best if it's only an intermediate horn? A jupiter... pah!

 

[DavidUK]

Well, if you think that players will be impressed that a sax is a Selmer, then I'd say get an SA80. I certainly wouldn't see any benefit in paying the premium for a Ref 54. What I would say is that although your SA80II was great, that doesn't guarentee that another will be. Selmer don't have the same sort of consitency that Yamaha and Yanagisawa have.

Personally I'd be thinking about this in the same way as, say, buying a pair of studio monitors. What you'd want is neutral quality, rather than 'character'. For me, that would mean a Yamaha YAS62 or a Yanagisawa A901.

I see where you're coming from.

I'll keep an eye out for any/all of these, at bargain prices naturally, to turn into PRO-totypes.