Tone or Sound recording oneself

[Jez Watson]

Having watched some stuff on youtube about the importance of recording oneself, today while visiting @Tiberius i had the chance to do some quick recording and i had with me my new STM NY6 and my HR Link 6*.
The most comfortable mpc i play for me is a HR Link type and i like the way it sounds and the way i can shape it, i assumed before recording that i was going to sound the best on it and was a bit surprised at the result.
First take was on the STM NY then the HR Link, what was obvious on listening back was that what i heard in my head wasn't what i heard on the recording and was no indication of how i felt when playing either of them, the HRLink didn't sound anything like it did in my head and the STM NY was much better though it doesn't feel quite as comfortable to play, the biggest surprise though was that @Tiberius main mpc which is a Berg Larsen SS which i find very uncomfortable to play sounded even better and nothing like it does in my head ( by in my head i mean the sound you hear yourself making as you play which is a balance of acoustic sound and transmissions through the mpc beak through teeth into the skull?).
This was quite a revelation and made me realise that the piece i should be playing wasn't the one i was! I cant play the Berg as its too uncomfortable for me but its convinced me to persevere
with the STM NY.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Not wishing to muddy the waters and not knowing what you heard and/or expected to hear, but the microphone will play a big part in what the recording sounds like, as would its positioning. And then there's the acoustics of the room and whatever you played the recorded file back on, too.

How you physically feel while playing often feels different to how it sounds as well but that always seems to happen.

 

[Colin the Bear]

And after playing any mouthpiece for a period of time, you end up sounding like you.

The room has it input too.

Play the mouthpiece that is easiest to play. In tune and on time is more important than tone imo.

 

[Jeanette]

That's interesting but did Tiberius think the one that sounded best recorded sound best listening live?

Jx

 

[Nick Wyver]

I play what sounds best to me when I'm playing it. I don't really give a stuff about what what it sounds like in recording, or to anybody else for that matter.

 

[Jez Watson]

And after playing any mouthpiece for a period of time, you end up sounding like you.

The room has it input too.

Play the mouthpiece that is easiest to play. In tune and on time is more important than tone imo.

Surely ones TONE is a major part of the equation?

 

[Jez Watson]

That's interesting but did Tiberius think the one that sounded best recorded sound best listening live?

Jx

Yes he thought just the same as me!

 

[Jez Watson]

I play what sounds best to me when I'm playing it. I don't really give a stuff about what what it sounds like in recording, or to anybody else for that matter.

The point im making is that the tone/sound we think we have is not the same in reality, recording the 3 mpc's gave a completely different picture of how they sounded when i was playing

 

[Jeanette]

The point im making is that the tone/sound we think we have is not the same in reality, recording the 3 mpc's gave a completely different picture of how they sounded when i was playing

But which is the true sound, there are many factors affecting a recorded sound?

Jx

 

[Alice]

Surely ones TONE is a major part of the equation?

I agree... what’s the point in all the practice we do to strengthen our embouchere etc if the tone we produce doesn’t matter?
Simply playing in time and in tune doesn’t matter at all if the recipient of your noise has their hands over their ears and a grimace on their face.

Edit: sorry, I meant “not as important as” not that it “doesn’t matter”.

 

[Jez Watson]

But which is the true sound, there are many factors affecting a recorded sound?

Jx

I dont think the recording was a "true" sound but was far more revealing than what i thought it sounded like when playing and much nearer how the listener hears it, the recording wasn't perfect but it captured the qualities and differences of each mpc, it gave me an indication about each piece that didn't involve how it felt to play and also more importantly devoid of the skull transmissions, i find the resonance in the skull through playing adds something to the players concept of how they sound which the listener doesn't hear and therefore isn't how they come across to the listener? for example the HR Link to me when playing sounds more resonant and brighter, the STM NY had the brightness that i thought i was hearing in the HR Link and the Berg was more balanced than i heard it when i was playing, the Berg sounds to me too bright and thin when im playing but on the recording it sounded the most clear and didn't sound thin, im sure if time was taken to capture a better recording it may be slightly more revealing but the conclusion would be the same?

 

[Jeanette]

Thanks @Jez Watson I struggle with this because often when playing I quite like my tone but when listening on recordings I don't which makes me think it probably sounds pretty awful to the listener......hey ho more work to do

Jx

 

[Tiberius]

That's interesting but did Tiberius think the one that sounded best recorded sound best listening live?

First, lets be clear, the difference were quite small and subtle, @Jez Watson sounds like Jez on all the pieces. The recording altered the sounds a little (or more likely the playback through average speakers), but not greatly.

I have a personally preference for the purer sound rather than the 'fatter' sound. I gravitate away from the traditional fat link sound, preferring the more concentrated Berg sound (not the buzzy sound of the high baffle ones). My favourite sax sound is Jez playing on my Berg.

I'm lucky also in that this mouthpiece feels the most comfy in my mouth. My Berg SMS 2, feels way more comfy than the wider Links, sadly for Jez, it's the opposite, he likes his sound on my Berg, but hates playing it.

I agree with his main point though, we do sound different to other people than we sound to ourselves.

 

[Rob Pealing]

I suspect a recording of anyone will never sound to them like they do to themselves when playing, similar to a recording of your dictation does not sound like you. When you hear yourself speak or play you hear some of the sound through bone conduction and some through air conduction. The recording only picks up the air conduction, so when you listen to the recording you are not hearing the bone element.
I also suspect if you don't use a patch on the mouth piece the difference is even more noticeable because your teeth are in direct contact with the mouth piece where the sound originates.
So I think the recording probably gives a truer indication of what you sound like to your audience.
The first time I used ear plugs to protect from the four trumpets immediately behind me I did not sound to me like I am accustomed to it was particularly noticeable in the upper range of my alto, I had removed a large part of the air conduction.
This is awkward to word, I hope it is clear.

 

[Tiberius]

Not wishing to muddy the waters and not knowing what you heard and/or expected to hear, but the microphone will play a big part in what the recording sounds like, as would its positioning. And then there's the acoustics of the room and whatever you played the recorded file back on, too.

For sure, all these recordings done in my lounge 26' x 18.5' cheap recording gear, played back on fairly cheap speakers. Recorded in front of a fairly large window (about 13' x 6') which seems to add some reflection/amplification.

 

[Tiberius]

Interestingly, I just played them to my wife, and she prefers the Link. Claiming that the Berg is 'too harsh'.

So there you go, a lot down to personal preference 🙂

 

[kevgermany]

Play the mouthpiece that is easiest to play. In tune and on time is more important than tone imo.

Surely ones TONE is a major part of the equation?

Point is that when you can play easily, you'll sort your tone out, but if you're concentrating on getting the notes out and in tune, you'll not be able to think about tone. @Colin the Bear didn't say it wasn't a major part, he just said he thought it was less important. I'd add 'at this stage'.

The rider is that many players have a terrible tone to some listeners. Even super hero sax players.... Playing pieces that match your tone is important - imagine Candy Dulfer playing Ben Webster... Or Coltrane playing Yakety Sax.

 

[Tiberius]

Point is that when you can play easily, you'll sort your tone our, but if you're concentrating on getting the notes out and in tune, you'll not be able to think about tone.

Strangely in this instance, Jez had trouble playing my Berg, 2 false starts on the recording. But the tone was immediately better (in our view...as I said, my wife prefers the link).

 

[Jez Watson]

Strangely in this instance, Jez had trouble playing my Berg, 2 false starts on the recording. But the tone was immediately better (in our view...as I said, my wife prefers the link).

you know your wife is always right though dont you!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Great tone? Off beat and out of tune is....Not a great tone. To be blunt, It grates on the ear.

A stand alone, solo saxophone, may sound great. Put that same instrument and player in an ensemble and the most important thing is that it blends.

When you're playing as part of a front line with trombone and trumpet, it's important that it sounds like a band, playing together. Harmony and rhythm. When your solo comes round it's just you and the rhythm section. Different criteria.

If you're fighting the mouthpiece you're not free to concentrate on listening . An easy to play mouthpiece will allow the player to be flexible in tone. Moulding and shaping the tone with embouchure to suit the company and the room. If a player is letting the kit dominate the sound then the player isn't in control. Micro managing ones tone is less important than expanding musicianship imo.

I agree that some of the greats have a very poor tone imo, but this is mitigated by artistry and imagination. For example, I find the recordings of Paul Desmond and Johhny Hodges to have a lovely core tone. Charlie Parker, in my opinion has a very poor tone. However his technical, imaginative and effortless playing, distracts and entertains me and I listen to what he plays. Lost in the music. Listening to the song not the singer. I can't imagine Jr Walker playing Ellington. Poor tone or wrong tone or right tone, wrong band.

A bird concentrates on flying, not the colour of his feathers.