Beginner Question -Embouchure

[Wade Cornell]

I'm giving that advice as a raw beginner on sax myself.
I put about an hour or so of backing tracks, all in the same key, and originally all similar blues progressions, on a USB drive, turn the stereo up and just jam the major and minor pentatonic scales over them.
I've been doing this with the little pocket sax since Christmas, my Soprano only arrived a week ago, but it's almost a straight swap from one to the other. The pocket sax I have is in Bb, uses an alto mouthpiece, and the basic fingering from low C to middle C is the same.
My wife is also learning, she started the pocket sax perhaps two weeks before the tenor arrived a month ago, and now plays the tenor almost daily.
Due to the practice on the pocket sax, we both could play "When the Saints", and the D minor pentatonic scale within minutes of playing the tenor for the very first time (not well!). The hours on the pocket sax meant that we had developed some embouchure muscles and skills.
I just play outside and have a few beers while I jam to the backing tracks practicing scales, but my wife will practice without them for an hour or so. At some point I'll hear her "sagging" and starting to sound worse, not better, that's when I'll pull out the sheet with the pentatonic scales on it and put the backing tracks on. Then instead of packing it in for the day, she'll get a second wind and play for perhaps another hour and a half or more, basically until she hits a backing track that she doesn't "feel".
It's only been a few weeks, but she's close to the stage where if I record her, so she hears what I do, it will give her much more confidence in her playing, which in turn, will improve her playing.
There can be no doubt though that that the extra hours due to playing to the backing tracks is helping her embouchure, and helping it to come naturally, rather than her having to think about it.
I personally think that it's a great practice tool myself, especially when just starting to learn sax. 🙂
I'm not dismissing the points you make, and I understand where you're coming from, they're valid points.
I just don't think that my comments I made about the backing tracks should be disregarded. 🙂

I wish my wife would play any instrument. Instead she plays "the music widow" part, and does it to perfection! You're a lucky man!

 

[jbtsax]

But the crucial controller is the embouchure and one that is too tight or too loose could be manipulated to that pitch by the mouthpiece position on the neck.

Your point is well taken. The mouthpiece starting position on the cork is where the instrument tunes to A=440. Then the played pitch on the mouthpiece and neck is adjusted by the embouchure to be those pitches I prescribed. Sometimes there will be a slight back and forth adjustment between the two. I have found this to be a useful teaching tool to help students to check the tightness of the embouchure. It is much more accessible to younger students than playing the mouthpiece alone.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Your point is well taken. The mouthpiece starting position on the cork is where the instrument tunes to A=440. Then the played pitch on the mouthpiece and neck is adjusted by the embouchure to be those pitches I prescribed. Sometimes there will be a slight back and forth adjustment between the two. I have found this to be a useful teaching tool to help students to check the tightness of the embouchure. It is much more accessible to younger students than playing the mouthpiece alone.

Yes I do agree that it's useful. Coupled with making sure that the mouthpiece is in a 'usual' position on the neck as you say.

 

[Guenne]

Which leads to the question where the „correct“ spot is.
I could move about 5mm and still play in tune.
Should one match let‘s say middle c normal fingering and low c overblown?
Cheers, Guenne

 

[Colin the Bear]

After Jbt's recommendation I now position the mouthpiece by overblowing bell notes 8ve and 12th and comparing normal fingerings. Once the sax is in tune with itself it speaks more clearly and easily. It was a revelation to me.

 

[jbtsax]

After Jbt's recommendation I now position the mouthpiece by overblowing bell notes 8ve and 12th and comparing normal fingerings. Once the sax is in tune with itself it speaks more clearly and easily. It was a revelation to me.

What Colin is referring to is I tune my alto sax to A concert, first F#1 then check F#2 with and without the octave key and then finger low B and overblow to the 2nd overtone. When all three line up, I have found the optimum location for the mouthpiece.

Interestingly I first learned of the Ab concert on the mouthpiece and neck in a lesson from Ray Smith. I had played too high on the pitch for years. When I loosened my embouchure slightly to bring the pitch down to Ab and played F2 with the same feeling it produces a big, full, focused sound. The other benefit was the typically sharp notes D2 and A2 were closer to being in tune. Attached is a paper I wrote that attempts to show a mathematical verification of this pitch on an alto saxophone neck and mouthpiece.

 

[GCinCT]

What Colin is referring to is I tune my alto sax to A concert, first F#1 then check F#2 with and without the octave key and then finger low B and overblow to the 2nd overtone. When all three line up, I have found the optimum location for the mouthpiece.

Interestingly I first learned of the Ab concert on the mouthpiece and neck in a lesson from Ray Smith. I had played too high on the pitch for years. When I loosened my embouchure slightly to bring the pitch down to Ab and played F2 with the same feeling it produces a big, full, focused sound. The other benefit was the typically sharp notes D2 and A2 were closer to being in tune. Attached is a paper I wrote that attempts to show a mathematical verification of this pitch on an alto saxophone neck and mouthpiece.

I have always tuned using your method since I first read about it here on the forum. It made a huge difference.

 

[Yansalis]

I have just started playing

In the great scheme of things, it is pointless and meaningless.

Katie, Colin speaks for himself on this, perpetuating a commonplace misapplication of the idea of meaning which detaches it from its foundations in reality and pretends it can apply on some larger scale. Human life is its own meaning, and the only context for the idea of meaning. The pursuits that you choose to make up your life are part of its meaning. You get to choose the shape of that life, and therein is the meaning.

 

[Colin the Bear]

@Yansalis ...and the small scheme of things?
Half a quote is no quote at all.

 

[Yansalis]

@Yansalis ...and the small scheme of things?
Half a quote is no quote at all.

Here you are, happy to oblige.

In the small scheme of things, it is fundamental to existence and satisfies the soul.
Don't worry. Music is infectious but rarely fatal. 😉

 

[Direct Current]

I recommend starting out by playing long tones on just the mouthpiece and neck. On alto the note should be an Ab concert, and on tenor an E concert. Use lots of air and make the tone as big and beautiful as you can. Watch a clock and hold the tone for 15, 20, 30 seconds or more. The more time you spend doing this forming the embouchure and producing a tone, the sooner it will become second nature allowing you to focus on other aspects of playing.

Can the muscles be strengthened by just playing the MP and neck?

I've thought about doing this while watching a television show.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Can the muscles be strengthened by just playing the MP and neck?

I've thought about doing this while watching a television show.

Only if you live alone or with deaf people.

 

[Dr G]

Can the muscles be strengthened by just playing the MP and neck?

I've thought about doing this while watching a television show.

Just do lip pushups. 😛

Seriously, if you want to make progress in the forward direction, make you practice mindful. Focus. Commit. Listen.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've thought about doing this while watching a television show.

When you practice the saxophone, it’s best to do it while not watching a television show. Focus.

 

[Targa]

When you practice the saxophone, it’s best to do it while not watching a television show. Focus.

Don't knock it till you try it.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Part of my day is spent playing along to films, adverts and old shows.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Part of my day is spent playing along to films, adverts and old shows.

You do this with just the mouthpiece and neck (as Direct Current wants to)?

​

 

[Direct Current]

It's a cold house tonight.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Part of my day is spent playing along to films, adverts and old shows.

That actually seems a different thing to just "playing while watching a show.”

It all depends whether you are focussing on the show, or how your playing fits in with the show and/or its music. Different things

 

[Colin the Bear]

That actually seems a different thing to just "playing while watching a show.”

It all depends whether you are focussing on the show, or how your playing fits in with the show and/or its music. Different things

I do both.
Playing with the show is something I do to keep my ear sharp, with varying degrees of success.
I also play newly learned and brush up pieces with a talk show on to simulate the noise and distractions of the pubs I play in.