Reeds Question about reeds

[scamper]

I've been using a Vandoren 2.5 reed and getting what I thought was a decent sound out of it. I thought it might be time to change it and got a new one out of my red box of 2.5 Vandoren reeds. I just couldn't get a sound out of it. It sounded very muffled and it felt like hard work even though it was the same grade/hardness. I tried another because I'd heard that they are not all playable in a box and it was the same. I did some checking and I think the original reed I had came from a Vandoren black box I found. I went to the Vandoren website and it said the black box was the original and designed for classical playing, I think.

Thinking it was some sort of compatibility issue with the mouthpiece, I tried another mouthpiece I had and it was the same. Any expert out there who might know what's going on? Should I not worry and settle on using the black box reeds if they work. Just don't want to keep going out and buying boxes of reeds to find out which ones suit me.

 

[shamba504424]

Hi,I had the same problems as you with cane reeds and spent ages trying to get a decent reed to practice with until I tried out a Legere synthetic,problem solved for me in that respect,could actually spend more time practicing and less time faffing around with a reed geek etc., ,I do agree that the cane reed is a warmer sound but it does free you up to actually do some playing.
They are more expensive initially to buy one but last for months and are consistent

 

[DartmoorHedgehog]

I don't subscribe to the "50% of the reeds in a box are unplayable" view, but I definitely reckon a reed is at its best in the few hours before it gives up. Then when you swap to a new reed it feels like hard work again until it plays in a bit. Good reason to have two reeds on the go so you've got another nicely played-in one to swap to when one dies.

 

[scamper]

I think I agree with everything you say, however I must confess that I have a soprano saxophone and I bought some plastic covered reeds (can't remember which brand) and although they were very convenient I just found them too loud and bright. So do you sacrifice the perfecting of your sound for getting on and practising all the other stuff?

 

[scamper]

I don't subscribe to the "50% of the reeds in a box are unplayable" view, but I definitely reckon a reed is at its best in the few hours before it gives up. Then when you swap to a new reed it feels like hard work again until it plays in a bit. Good reason to have two reeds on the go so you've got another nicely played-in one to swap to when one dies.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. Maybe it's because I've been playing the other one for so long I've forgotten what a new reed feels like, and maybe the red box is a bit stiffer to begin with.

 

[nigeld]

The original Vandoren reed for classical playing is called "Traditional, or "Blue Box". Black Box ZZ reeds are for jazz and rock.

The strengths are not the same - a ZZ 2.5 reed corresponds to a 2.0 Traditional reed.

According to the Vandoren site, Red Box reeds are about halfway between ZZ and Traditional, so a Red Box 2.5 would feel harder than a ZZ 2.5, but softer than a Traditional 2.5.

Also, any reed will feel softer once it is played in.

 

[shamba504424]

Never used the plastic covered ones so I cant really comment on those but the completely synthetic ones can produce a warm sound,I use a 2.25 Legere with a Vandoren V16 T7 mouthpiece and it gives me a really lush warm sound which is what I am looking for but can also give an edgier sound when you push it

 

[scamper]

The original Vandoren reed for classical playing is called "Traditional, or "Blue Box". Black Box ZZ reeds are for jazz and rock.

The strengths are not the same - a ZZ 2.5 reed corresponds to a 2.0 Traditional reed.

According to the Vandoren site, Red Box reeds are about halfway between ZZ and Traditional, so a Red Box 2.5 would feel harder than a ZZ 2.5, but softer than a Traditional 2.5.

Also, any reed will feel softer once it is played in.

That's very good. I didn't realise the strength within a brand was different. When I said the black box I think it is the Traditional. It's a very dark box but not exactly black and it doesn't have ZZ or anything on it.

I think I need to get my reeds in order and get several sorted out and rotated. And also give some more time to the working on the red box reeds to see if they soften up.

Stupid question if I don't play classical music is it okay to play the Traditional. I know I can but would I get laughed at in front of a jazz dude?

 

[Vetinari]

What equipment you use is nothing to do with anyone else, it's what works for you that matters. If you sound good, you've got the right gear for you.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The played-in slightly softer Reed isn’t the only part of a new one feeling harder, your embouchure gets weaker along with the Reed. The main point of rotating reeds - as I understand it - is to keep an air of variation going, keeping the embouchure up to strength.

 

[Colin the Bear]

All the Vandoren reeds have a slightly different cut. Their website explains this.
These cuts range from a thinner tip to a thinner heart along with the usual american and french filed.
The strength of a reed is designated after it has been cut and there can be some variance.
I used Vandoren blue 3 for years but they became too stiff. I switched to 2.5 but they were too soft. Changed brands to Rico reserve 3 but when they changed to D'Addario the 3 became too stiff.
It helps to be able to adjust a reed. No need for fancy gear. I get good results with a swiss army knife and a clipper.
If you Google reed comparison chart several will pop up. They mostly give the same opinion but do rate reeds slightly differently. However it's a good place to start till you form your own opinion and untill the next box is different.

 

[Phil]

IMHO plasticovers sound terrible. I never throw a reed away. Some are better than others but all can be made to play. The people who complain about reeds the most are people who have fairly fatal flaws in their mouthpeices. A properly adjusted mouthpiece on a horn that does not leak yields a good percentage of reeds.

NOW...dont give up after trying one reed or one type of reed. There are many brands, many cuts. You have to find what works for you and your level of playing. To make matters worse every brands 2.5 is a different hardness. Anyway, just be patient and try a few different things. No one can tell you which brand of reeds to play...any more than someone can help you decide between wearing boxers or briefs.

 

[scamper]

The played-in slightly softer Reed isn’t the only part of a new one feeling harder, your embouchure gets weaker along with the Reed. The main point of rotating reeds - as I understand it - is to keep an air of variation going, keeping the embouchure up to strength.

Yes, I can see how that might be now. So glad I asked the question. 🙂

 

[scamper]

All the Vandoren reeds have a slightly different cut. Their website explains this.
These cuts range from a thinner tip to a thinner heart along with the usual american and french filed.
The strength of a reed is designated after it has been cut and there can be some variance.
I used Vandoren blue 3 for years but they became too stiff. I switched to 2.5 but they were too soft. Changed brands to Rico reserve 3 but when they changed to D'Addario the 3 became too stiff.
It helps to be able to adjust a reed. No need for fancy gear. I get good results with a swiss army knife and a clipper.
If you Google reed comparison chart several will pop up. They mostly give the same opinion but do rate reeds slightly differently. However it's a good place to start till you form your own opinion and untill the next box is different.

Just watched an interesting youtube of Jim at sax.co.uk explaining the Vandoren range. Didn't realise there was so much variation in the types. Even he was finding some harder to blow!!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Mouthpieces have different facing curves. Long , short, steep, gentle etc. They also vary in the accuracy of the processing of said curve and may also have flaws and inconsistencies or damage. They also have a variety of internal shapes and volumes.
Add to this climate change and local freak weather conditions for the growers and it's no wonder reeds feel slightly different. And then there's our unique personal physiognomy and state of face fitness.
We pick it because it's pretty but it's ugly really. 😉

 

[nigeld]

And some mouthpieces work better with different brands of reed.

 

[shamba504424]

We,re all doomed🙁

 

[Phil]

We are sax players o doomed? Yep

 

[Ballymenaboy]

Hi,I had the same problems as you with cane reeds and spent ages trying to get a decent reed to practice with until I tried out a Legere synthetic,problem solved for me in that respect,could actually spend more time practicing and less time faffing around with a reed geek etc., ,I do agree that the cane reed is a warmer sound but it does free you up to actually do some playing.
They are more expensive initially to buy one but last for months and are consistent

I totally agree and use Legere American Cut for Tenor/Alto and Soprano-now waiting for Leger to produce an American Cut clarinet reed

 

[Wade Cornell]

I don't know why teachers of beginners don't recommend synthetic reeds...tradition I guess or just a form of hazing the newbie? The best thing for all players IMHO is to take the variables out so that tone embouchure fingering and everything else can be worked on instead of fighting with the inconsistency of cane reeds. How does a beginner know if the teacher doesn't pick up the students horn with the same mouthpiece and reed to say to the student why they are having difficulty playing? Yea, NOT happening in Covid times...and rightfully so.

Some like Legere, and they are very good at customer service, but they aren't the only good synthetic and some of us prefer others. The plastic coats are generally not very good as it's just an ordinary cane reed (you know the kind that can be good or bad!) covered with resin. A well manufactured synthetic doesn't change until it dies. The Fibercells used to be OK and inexpensive. They are now crap, and nobody seems to know why or what happened...AVOID!!!

The Legere don't do it for me as the tone isn't quite right. They also have a break-in change period, which doesn't help. Some like the Forestone range. My preference is the Hartmann "Fiberreed". They have a range of different materials and most are definitely not that bright sounding. The hemp on copper onyx are very dark sounding. They are initially expensive, but in the long run much cheaper as they last from four months to over a year. Roughly from 2/3 to 1/3 the cost of buying the number of cane reeds of good quality I'd need for the same period. The only proviso is that you MUST be careful not to chip or break them.

Make no mistake cane reeds can be wonderful sounding, but they are inherently inconsistent. Some may think that that's somehow good. Maybe there are even cricketers who think it's good to play with a bat that's 1 inch wide as it helps you to become more accurate? Would go into a match with a 1 inch bat ? If synthetics help you develop faster and don't have the hiccups of cane why even consider that cane is necessary? Synthetics are used by top players because they are an improvement. We don't seem to shun improvements in the materials and ergonomics of our instrument, but there seems to be a conservative/traditional element to sax players and cane. Beginners and teachers, it's up to you whether you hamper yourselves and your students or utilize what may work best.