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Beginner Plus and Circle symbols over Notes

jbtsax

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I just happen to have the CD Somethin' Else that this song is found on and listened to Cannonball as I followed the transcription---which by the way is excellent. That confirmed my hunch that the + indicates that the C# to D trill fingering was used instead of the regular D fingering. That fingering for those who don't know it is the Eb (middle) palm key added to open C#. It works in both octaves with the tone being better in the 2nd.
 

Ivan

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I just happen to have the CD Somethin' Else that this song is found on and listened to Cannonball as I followed the transcription---which by the way is excellent. That confirmed my hunch that the + indicates that the C# to D trill fingering was used instead of the regular D fingering. That fingering for those who don't know it is the Eb (middle) palm key added to open C#. It works in both octaves with the tone being better in the 2nd.

Erm

This is new fingering to me but...

If it works in the octaves using open C#, they are the 2nd and 3rd C sharps so for the third C# you would use the D palm key anyway?
 

jbtsax

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Erm

This is new fingering to me but...

If it works in the octaves using open C#, they are the 2nd and 3rd C sharps so for the third C# you would use the D palm key anyway?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Adding the Eb palm key to C# produces the D note with the plus over it.
 

Ivan

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I'm not sure I understand the question. Adding the Eb palm key to C# produces the D note with the plus over it.

To put it different way, playing C# with the the D palm key plays a D, so what advantage is the Eb key
 

jbtsax

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In the lower octave better intonation. Playing D using the D palm key in the lower octave is quite flat.
 

Pete Thomas

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While it is true the alternate D is flat, this can be fine when used as an effect, ie when used as a false fingering alternating rapidly between the two fingerings. If you are using that fingering instead for it's tone, eg as a long note then the Eb is very useful for intonation.

In either case it varies form horn to horn so just check them and decide which to use when.
 

jbtsax

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Thanks for that link Pete. I had never seen the + and o symbols used in that fashion for woodwinds just for open and muted brass. It makes perfect sense. Your calling fingerings "alternative" that others call "alternate" is interesting and something else I had not seen before. However I am a bit confused. When you click on the link http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-false-fingerings the tab at the top says "False Fingerings AKA Alternate Fingerings". Does this mean that your use of the term "alternate fingerings" means the same as False Fingerings which you alternate back and forth with the regular fingering to create an effect?

There is just one area where we disagree. That is calling A2 played by adding RH 123 a 2nd overtone of D. In my experience it is still the fundamental of A with a different timbre and pitch created by closing more toneholes downstream of the 1st tonehole that vents the A. Interestingly on my SBA alto adding RH 123 to A2actually raises the pitch. Adding low C to the mix brings the pitch back so it is closer to A.
 

Pete Thomas

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Bit of a worm can this. Before the internet and my discovery that there were American saxophone players also, I used to only use the correct English terms:

  • Alternative meaning the fingerings that made life easier (e.g. front F# or side F#, bis Bb etc.)
  • Alternating meaning when you alternate between two fingerings, aka false fingering, fake fingering or double densities

In correct English, to alternate (verb with stress on 3rd syllable) means go back and forth between two things, whereas alternative (adj) describes another way to say or do something. So it is confusing for English people to use the word in the way it is used in American English as another way to say alternative. We only ever say alternative as an adjective.

In English English as it is spoke by the Queen (aka her Majesty), this is not the case - ie alternate is not an alternative for alternative.

So my site used to make this differentiation. However due to my discovery, as mentioned above, that there are also saxophone players in America and that they use the word alternate to mean alternative, I changed the terminology on the site so as not to confuse them.

However I must have left that alternate there by accident in reference to false fingerings as I intended to adopt the Americanisms just for an easy life. I will need to change it because obviously it's a bit confusing, however nothing will ever make me say sidewalk, parking lot or tomayto.


 
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jbtsax

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Thanks Pete. You will never catch me saying "bean" instead of "bin" when I read "been" either. In the US "alternative" is most often used as a noun such as "Getting old is not so bad when you consider the alternative". "Alternate" is commonly used here as an adjective as in "I took an alternate route, or I used an alternate fingering". Thank you for your efforts to try to communicate with your cousins here across the pond.
 

Ivan

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Thanks for the different viewpoint chaps

On my tenor super 80 II (coupled with my questionable embouchure) the D palm key is OK for tuning but Eb is alarmingly sharp

Does this make the Eb more false (falserer) than the D?
 

photoman

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However due to my discovery, as mentioned above, that there are also saxophone players in America...

That feller (fellow) Coltrane is hot stuff (extremely competent). I heard him on the radio (wireless). His buddy (friend) Charlie (Charles) Parker is also pretty neat (quite good) too.
 

kernewegor

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.... however nothing will ever make me say sidewalk, parking lot or tomayto.....

My ex-wife-to-be (as was) tells an amusing yarn about her days as a tenor horn student (indeed, the very first tenor horn student) at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester.

They were putting on a show. One of the singing students was required to sing "Let's Call The Whole Thing Off'.

It soon became apparent to everyone that she had never heard the song performed.

What let the cat out of the bag was that when she sang "...I say potato, you say potato..." she pronounced both potatoes precisely the same... and, mutatis mutandis, throughout the song... tomato...tomato... either...either... neither....neither.....

What made it even funnier was that her expression conveyed that she thought the song was totally pointless, silly and beneath her (she was training to be an opera singer) ... but also.... that she couldn't understand why everyone else found the words so amusing...
 

old git

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My ex-wife-to-be (as was) tells an amusing yarn about her days as a tenor horn student (indeed, the very first tenor horn student) at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester.

They were putting on a show. One of the singing students was required to sing "Let's Call The Whole Thing Off'.

It soon became apparent to everyone that she had never heard the song performed.

What let the cat out of the bag was that when she sang "...I say potato, you say potato..." she pronounced both potatoes precisely the same... and, mutatis mutandis, throughout the song... tomato...tomato... either...either... neither....neither.....

What made it even funnier was that her expression conveyed that she thought the song was totally pointless, silly and beneath her (she was training to be an opera singer) ... but also.... that she couldn't understand why everyone else found the words so amusing...

Did she become Margot in The Good Life?
 

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