Playing with a vocalist?

[wakyct]

I'm wondering what do the melody instruments usually do when playing with a singer? (cue punchline....)

Seriously though, next Saturday I'm playing in a sort of jam session (there's a book/setlist, mostly jazz and standards). It'll be my first time playing with a singer. Do the saxophones usually sit out when the vocalist sings the melody? I guess I'm wondering what the general expectation is.

 

[Nick Wyver]

You can do fills in the gaps, providing the guitarist doesn't get there first.

 

[hedgehog]

Good question. I first think of the long-term collaboration between Houston Person and Etta Jones. Sometimes he lays out, sometimes he fills in where there's space. Their recoding of "All of Me" from 2001 is a good example. Or Scott Hamilton and Dena DeRose, or Scott and Andrea Motis. They complement each other. My suggestion: just listen to a few of their recordings.

I would suggest the most important thing is: don't step on the vocals. When the singer is singing, they should be heard. Oh, also, talk to the vocalist before the session starts and ask what they would like to hear from you.

 

[Pete Thomas]

If in doubt play nothing, or some counterpoint, eg chord notes that lead nicely or if there are gaps in the melody you can play something complementary.

If someone else does it, e.g., guitar or piano just give them a dirty look. If they do it again, a really dirty look.

 

[ghostler]

Some pieces, the sax can do soft countermelodies and be a part of background chords. It takes a little coordinating, and yes, filling in between open spaces in the singer's verse lines. Main thing is that the vocalist shines.

A sense of humility helps. Certainly don't want to do anything that would prevent you from being invited to the next rehearsal and performance. If you do well, you can earn the respect of the band leader, singers and instrumentalists.

People enjoy it, especially if you can add to the performance "something that was missing" without you.

 

[Woodpad]

You also need to hear when its too much. Another chalenge is to do it unplugged..

 

[Pete Effamy]

Sanborn was a master at playing alongside singers. We get used to lines that are simply too long, so it’s quite a skill to develop short, often very short - maybe only two notes - ideas that say something in themselves.

 

[thomsax]

Lots of good sax who can play fillings. Listen to old R&B ballads ...... sax players that are not well known are often playing good fillings.

Keep in mind, it's a collaboration between the singer and the instrumentalist.

 

[MikeMorrell]

I play in two bands with vocalists:
- a Big Band, which usually (but not always) alternates between 'vocal sections' and 'instrumental special sections'; the golden rule is that when then vocalist is singing, the band plays 'softly'. Kind of a supporting 'blanket' for the vocalist who's show it is. On the 'specials', the band can let rip until the next vocal section
- A pop/rock band: some songs (Blues, Funk) lend themselves are great for sax fills and/or solo's, others not so much. FWIW I try to listen to song beforehand (YouTube: original and Live) and discuss with the band whether, when and how my sax can add anything (or not). In our band, it's often the keyboard player who adds short fills between vocal lines.

In my limited (2 month experience) it depends a lot on:
a) do you have a keyboard player? if so, his/her 'sound' (piano <-> hammond) can either complement or compete with the 'sax sound'
b) does a sax really add anything to the song/band?
c) the duration of the 'gap' between vocal lines (is there enough time to play a 3-note fill?)
d) is the 'gap' already filled? (keyboard/guitar?) and can you 'renegotiate'?
e) the 'dynamics' of the song; I don't necessarily start playing in the 1st verse/chorus but a sax in the 2nd verse/chorus can give a bit more 'body' to the development; Similarly a song sometimes reaches a crescendo (in volume) or a change of tempo/key where the addition of a sax gives an additional impulse
f) after xxx guitar solo's, a sax solo can add something new and refreshing
g) don't forget that a slow sax intro/outro can be effective too!

Just 3 of examples from our repertoire:
- extreme example: great balls of fire (piano-centric, fast rhythm/lyrics) sax doesn't match tune and no room to play anyway!
- Unchain my Heart (Joe Cocker) sax fills + solo
- Pearl's a singer (Elkie Brooks): I chime in at the tempo change (2:50) but the sax player plays 'supporting notes' during most of the song

View: https://youtu.be/0R9c5fFVtBI?si=uTvj97m0DxF3lBCH

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2yYLdigGbo

 

[jazzdoh]

This a good example of sax playing with a vocalist.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvKYSX46Idk

 

[ghostler]

This a good example of sax playing with a vocalist.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvKYSX46Idk

This is what I was referring to as a sax counter-melody when the singer was singing. The mellowness of the soprano sax works very well with the singer's voice. The simple instrumentation with the guitar as the accompanyment worked out very well.

Of course, one could build from there by adding at least say, bongos and high hat or a trap set, string bass or bass guitar, maybe a keyboard adding background string choir, but IMO the wholesomeness of the simple instrumentation worked out very effectively.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is what I was referring to as a sax counter-melody when the singer was singing. The mellowness of the soprano sax works very well with the singer's voice.

If only all saxophones were that mellow. Even then, there are issues for me when there are saxophone/singer unisons. Sting probably didn't care anyway.

 

[ghostler]

If only all saxophones were that mellow. Even then, there are issues for me when there are saxophone/singer unisons. Sting probably didn't care anyway.

It is all about control. Perhaps this is what separates the adult players from "children". And, there is a proper time and place, timing is of essence. And, not everyone has that sense of "touch and feel" to pull it off successfully, plus, the nature of the audience and venue plays a great part.

Not everyone gets the "golden buzzer". 🙂

 

[Wade Cornell]

There are on this site a number of tracks that have been posted as practices in all sorts of genres including playing with pop vocalists. These offer an example with sax, and then the same track without the sax. Most all modes of support/accompaniment discussed above are represented (fills, counterpoint, harmony, etc.). Give these a try as most are not difficult, yet offer the challenge of NOT being "standards". Its up to the player to hear what's going on and improvise their accompaniment or solos. Here's a few (there are more to be found in you're interested):
Rock & Pop - The Other Sax #11
Rock & Pop - #121
Rock & Pop - #109
Rock & Pop - #53
Rock & Pop - #279
Rock & Pop - #291

There's nothing "fancy/technical" in most of these. The job of accompaniment is to make the singer and the music sound as good as possible. You need to "fit". Play lines that work with the melody using tone and dynamics that add to the story. If your timing, phrasing, tone, and feel are wrong it disrupts rather than enhancing. You don't need to "impress" and playing simple lines generally works best.

Have a go!

 

[JayeNM]

My band has a vocalist so this is right in our wheelhouse.

Good suggestions so far.

One other thing we do quite often is have the horn play an intro...either the actual melody or just noodling over the changes.

So if it's, say, a 12-bar blues, horn starts with a quick little improv for 12 bars.

If it's a jazz standard, horn and rhythm play the last 4, 8, or 16 before vox comes in.

*if you are noodling/improv at the intro, stay close to the melody, maybe even throw in the opening phrase of the melody - don't start throwing in all this other soloing stuff, you get to do that later in the song during your solo.

We found that this often helps the vocalist dial in to her/his opening pitches....

 

[JayeNM]

Good question. I first think of the long-term collaboration between Houston Person and Etta Jones. Sometimes he lays out, sometimes he fills in where there's space. Their recoding of "All of Me" from 2001 is a good example. Or Scott Hamilton and Dena DeRose, or Scott and Andrea Motis. They complement each other. My suggestion: just listen to a few of their recordings.

I would suggest the most important thing is: don't step on the vocals. When the singer is singing, they should be heard. Oh, also, talk to the vocalist before the session starts and ask what they would like to hear from you.

I'll add the pairing of Carmen McCrae & Clifford Jordan, many great recordings they did together

 

[Colin the Bear]

If you must play while the singer is singing, be part of the rhythm section.

Remember it's not a duet... unless it is.

Singers, while being accomplished performers, may not be accomplished musicians. It's very easy to put them off, so stay out of their way, but be prepared to pick it up if they lose the plot.

 

[Pete Effamy]

If you must play while the singer is singing, be part of the rhythm section.

Remember it's not a duet... unless it is.

Singers, while being accomplished performers, may not be accomplished musicians. It's very easy to put them off, so stay out of their way, but be prepared to pick it up if they lose the plot.

There is a caveat to this - in larger pop bands you’ll likely have B vocals. In a smaller setting you can harmonise/blend/copy in a BV-type way. It can be very convincing. But you have to do it in the right way and in the right places. If in doubt, just do it if the song has a big chorus.

 

[mrblackbat]

If in doubt play nothing

This.

Even when filling, less is more.

 

[Pete Effamy]

If you don’t know where to start, then imagine yourself as another singer. With most songs the gaps between lyrics is small, so what ad libs can you fit in:

- “yeah”
- “tell it to me sister”
- “say it again, say it again “

You get the idea. If you think of a few notes to apply then you have the type of fills to use.

If the lead singer fills in the gaps too then forget it. You need them to realise that they would need to tone it down for anyone else to have any space. Some do…