john in fla
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They DO scram... I may have forgotten to mention that
Playing by ear
- Thread starter Taz
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LostCircuits
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My cats don't really like sax but my Pyrenees comes and lies down whenever I play. When I started cello again, he used to give me that look and leave but now he also seems to enjoy it. I assume I am getting better
Dr G
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You make a good case for learning to read the dots enough to learn a song.
Colin the Bear
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Everybody plays by ear. The dots just advise you what to play by ear.
mizmar
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This is going ok.Of all the posts in this long thread, this is the one I've had to read and re-read. I've gone over it and analyzed it.
At the beginning of the year I resolved to put Mr. Bear's method, complicated as it is, into practice. I snagged some song arrangements for sax that are just a little more interesting than the real book and have been slowly commiting stuff to memory.
It's done me the world of good. Learning, eh? Who'd'v thought
The below popped up, which has a couple of nice ideas, particularly at 6:14 - 2 which feeds into agree step 3
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LostCircuits
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Get a different optometrist
Dr G
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Get a different optometrist
That was my first thought as well.
I find that denial is the most effective method of combatting age - nothing else works better.
Wade Cornell
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Wrong! The majority of players are taught to finger a notes according to seeing the dots. They have no idea what the sound will be coming from the instrument until it happens. It's an eye to hands pathway in the brain rather than hearing what the dot should sound like before it's played.Everybody plays by ear. The dots just advise you what to play by ear.
Proof is easy:
If you can look at a score and sing what you see, then you're hearing those notes. And are you able to sing the right notes/key without hearing a reference note played? (relative pitch as compared to perfect pitch).
Playing by ear doesn't require perfect pitch but means that hearing a line you can repeat it note perfectly (with a reference note or knowing the key). More importantly it's being able to play anything you would sing...the instrument is your voice.
Sorry Collin if yours was an attempt at some sort of humor. Lots of beginners/learners here who need straight information to help them along their journey. Reading is never about playing by ear.
First step: hearing and accurately repeating. More advanced (musically) is to be playing harmonies, counterpoint, an answering line (call and response), and fully improvising according to what you hear (NOT the same as "jazz theory", which is playing "the changes" using a cut and paste array of learned riffs and arpeggios).
The ear player should have a lot of musical experience with a mental library of a wide range of music, and even more important is to be creative in what they play. Players who spend their time practicing/playing the same tunes over and over may be good at remembering and performing, but are not playing by ear. The advanced ear player can play something that they have just heard for the first time, and/or improvise on that tune.
LostCircuits
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That reminds me of the story Oliver Sacks reported about the novelist/author who lost his ability to read after a stroke. So he could not write anymore either because he did not understand what he was writing. He did find a workaround, though, he could read it aloud to himself and since he could understand spoken language, he could use this as a backdoor to regain his ability of understanding written language. But he had to hear it.
You understand that that's essentially a pathological condition or something that is totally against the principle of sheet music which is supposed to be something you read and immediately understand the music. Personally I am guilty as charged, the only way I can understand sheet music is to sit down at a piano and a metronome and play it to myself to understand and then memorize the music. But I've been dyslexic until my ... forget it, I still am and the only way to learn reading was to read text aloud to myself. And eventually I ended up a "diagonal reader"
Which poses the question of whether the teaching method is actually favoring the wrong perspective of understanding written music. Because that's really the poodle's core here
Wade Cornell
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This whole long post is about playing by ear, however it does cross over to issues of teaching. The majority of people are visual learners, so respond best to visual stimuli. Music is an auditory medium, so you're starting off with a difficult fit, yet how else do we impart information and make it available for others to copy/follow? Auditory or (even rarer) tactile learners can have difficulty following a strictly visual way to play. Many of us are mixtures or percentages of each type rather than just one (a spectrum). It's obvious which types will gravitate towards playing visually as compared to by ear.
Coordinating/syncing an ear player's musical thoughts to an instrument takes a lot of effort compared to a visual learner being able to play written music. It's certainly not an easy option, and academia has no answers/programs, and for that matter can't teach creativity either. One learns what they can of the basics, then chooses (or is led down) a path. If it's improvisation and you can't play by ear, then the result is predictable. The ear player has all options open in terms of improvisational creativity and is only limited by their technique, mental library, and stylistic choices.
One should still learn whatever they can about music and certainly experience as wide a variety as possible. Know your strengths and "play" to them.
Exactly. And that's a shame that ear training is typically not taught along with reading. As a kid I was reprimanded for playing by ear. We'd get these watered down arrangements of familiar tunes that we were supposed to read ver batim, but I would play them as they actually sounded, with more notes and more complex rhythms. The teacher would say, that's not what's written. Play what's written. And I'd have to turn off the aural part of my brain and play the dots. I understand that it interfered with learning to read to some degree. But it would have been better for the teacher to embrace the student's natural ability and enthusiasm to make actual music. Maybe, play the page first (to demonstrate reading proficiency), then play by ear to foster ear training and musicality.
Ironically, my embellishment by ear method is exactly how one is supposed to play from a lead sheet in the real world, but not how one is supposed to play, say, in an orchestra. A well rounded musician needs to be able to do both.
What really irks me is the countless posts I see in various forums where a poster will ask for the sheet music or transcription for extremely simple songs. JUST PLAY THEM BY EAR! You don't need sheet music. Use your brain. I don't buy the excuse that a beginner can't do this. There are only 12 notes. So what if you have to hunt and peck through all 12 to find the right note at first. Do it on a few songs, and pretty soon you'll get the note on the first or second try.
mizmar
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With respect. I think it is a - very common, in this thread - error to confuse your abilities as a kid with the challenges of a mature learner (a large constituent of the forum).
Kids get good at stuff, often, because they are a bit good, so enjoy it, so do more, so get better, so enjoy it more, so do more ... possible ending up very good at a thing; and might even wax lyrical about how they got there without really knowing how. We all construct origin stories; How often is a great author interviewed and says "oh yes, as s kid I was always reading" or a painter "oh yes, as a kid I was always drawing" - so what? We all draw and read!
Well. As I said above, I have to include playing by ear as part of my practice cycle. I find it hard (of course I use material that's a bit hard, that's how grownups learn); but as a mature learner I have had to teach myself through hard work and no amount of writing "just play by ear" in caps, bold, underlined, italics, pink or blue is going to change that.
Yes you're right. But there are players that can't play without sheet music. Not even the extremely simple songs. Just tell these guys that if you can't play by ear you you can't be a part of a group? Nothing that I would do. So that's why I have sheet music for extremely simple songs. We are playing for fun.
Dr G
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The challenge of the eye/ear connection underscores the folly of late beginners taking on more than one horn before they gain any semblance of mastery. How does the mind process several different sonic answers (ex. sop/alto/tenor/bari) for a single fingering?
Lots of stuff here, but I would modify the initial statement of Colin to "all good musicians play by ear, the dots just tell you what to play by ear." Yes, of course there are people who just push buttons in accordance with where the dots are. These are the people who if they miss a note can't recover. But REAL musicians LISTEN to what's coming out of the instrument. They might have dots in front of them as a general reference (jazz musician using a lead sheet), or they might have dots in front of them as a specific guide to the notes, but with expectations of ornamentations that aren't written (classical musician playing baroque music) or the they might have dots in front of them as an extremely specific guide to exactly the notes and dynamics to be played (classical musician playing late-19th century music), or a piece of paper with a couple dozen dots and some chord symbols (what Cannonball's "parts" for Kind of Blue looked like), or a page with lyrics, chord symbols, and a couple comments like "Key of D, first note is B" (country, bluegrass, pop, rock musicians for generations) or no paper in front of them at all (all styles, from the beginning to now).
Well, I can't speak specifically to the adult taking up saxophone, but I can say that as an adult I took up double bass, which no other instrument I've played relates to; and I've had essentially zero issues with coping with its tuning.
In most cases this is psychological, not a matter of skill or capability. If your objective is to get them playing without music (turning a classical dots player into a jazz improviser), then you'll want to attack the fear of sounding bad, head-on. If your objective is just to play some music with friends, do what's needed.
Dr G
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Consider a function in the mathematical sense: an input results in a single outcome. If playing a variety of saxophone sizes, you can finger a note and the outcome depends on which sax you are playing. In the context of your bass, it would be equivalent to someone changing the tuning without you knowing it: when you play it, none of the pitches would be where you expect them regardless of how accurately you place your fingers.
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Let’s say that I have a piece of music with a single note written on it. A C on the second space of the treble staff. A new saxophonist gets told to place the middle finger of the left hand on the middle pearl of upper part of the saxophone and then to blow into the mouthpiece. The instructor says “That’s a C”.
Now the new saxophonist has four pieces of information. The written dot on the page, the fingering used to to produce the note that dot symbolizes, the name of the note and the sound of the note.
After the new saxophonist has played that note many times, those four pieces of information merge in the mind - so when s/he sees the note on the page, or when s/he fingers that note, or when s/he hears that sound, or when someone says “Play a C”, that combined representation is triggered. The written symbol, the tactile sensation of the fingering, the name of the note, and the sound, all at once. They are all different aspects of the same thing.
If someone wants to play saxophone without learning to read music, that’s fine. If someone always wants to have written music to play the saxophone, that’s fine too. It’s up to the musician.
But I completely reject the notion that someone can’t learn to read, or that someone can’t learn to play music without written notes. It’s a choice. Sure, some people have learning disabilities, and understanding written instructions is difficult; or maybe imagining notes to play without a written reference is difficult. I’m not saying it’s easy, just that it’s possible. It will take time and effort. and the amount of time and effort it takes may vary for each person. It may be that the time and effort is more than a particular person wants to spend. But it is a choice.
This idea of playing by ear vs playing written music is a false dichotomy. If one pays attention to the sounds one makes, then it’s no different reading a part or improvising. But you have to pay attention. And you have to work at it.
Repetition is mastery.
Now the new saxophonist has four pieces of information. The written dot on the page, the fingering used to to produce the note that dot symbolizes, the name of the note and the sound of the note.
After the new saxophonist has played that note many times, those four pieces of information merge in the mind - so when s/he sees the note on the page, or when s/he fingers that note, or when s/he hears that sound, or when someone says “Play a C”, that combined representation is triggered. The written symbol, the tactile sensation of the fingering, the name of the note, and the sound, all at once. They are all different aspects of the same thing.
If someone wants to play saxophone without learning to read music, that’s fine. If someone always wants to have written music to play the saxophone, that’s fine too. It’s up to the musician.
But I completely reject the notion that someone can’t learn to read, or that someone can’t learn to play music without written notes. It’s a choice. Sure, some people have learning disabilities, and understanding written instructions is difficult; or maybe imagining notes to play without a written reference is difficult. I’m not saying it’s easy, just that it’s possible. It will take time and effort. and the amount of time and effort it takes may vary for each person. It may be that the time and effort is more than a particular person wants to spend. But it is a choice.
This idea of playing by ear vs playing written music is a false dichotomy. If one pays attention to the sounds one makes, then it’s no different reading a part or improvising. But you have to pay attention. And you have to work at it.
Repetition is mastery.
Wade Cornell
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Good and relevant posts above! The ear vs eye for playing will always be an issue. Reality is that we are not all the same. The majority are visual learners, which suits reading and an academic style of learning. For the auditory learner this isn't a good match with lydian giving a classic example. Our brains are somewhat "plastic" which allows for pushing and learning different ways of doing things as per LostCircuits' example. Unfortunately the older we get, the more difficult this becomes.
The Suzuki method of teaching takes very young (3 to 5 year olds) and teaches them to play by 100% ear. The theory is that brains are very "plastic" at this stage and the young student learns music as they would learn to speak their "native tongue" (Suzuki's terminology). By imitating, the student can develop the ability to play whatever they hear, however even at this stage there are definitely differences in ability. Learning to read music comes after developing the ability to play by ear. This has been primarily utilized for "Classical" training and mostly the violin. It's very successful with early students well represented in the highest ranks of musicians (Joshua Bell, Hilary Hahn are two examples). https://www.vibemusicacademy.com/blog/what-is-the-suzuki-method
Dr G's point seems reasonable, yet I play/improvise equally well saxes on Bb Eb and C saxes. It may be that someone who has perfect pitch would find this difficult. However most of us have relative pitch, which means that instead of hearing and associating a specific pitch, it's all relative, so the key is of no significance. I'm never associating a name or any other "translating attachment" to a pitch while improvising. I could stop and tell you what it was on that horn or in concert pitch, but otherwise pay no attention. The same is true for playing any tune in any key on just one instrument.
I doubt that I'm unique in this way and it's likely that anyone who is playing by ear is similar. Would love to hear from other ear players about this as I have no real knowledge about what others do, but have certainly seen many pro players who can pick up on what somebody is singing and play along without asking what key (most singers couldn't tell you anyway!).
The Suzuki method of teaching takes very young (3 to 5 year olds) and teaches them to play by 100% ear. The theory is that brains are very "plastic" at this stage and the young student learns music as they would learn to speak their "native tongue" (Suzuki's terminology). By imitating, the student can develop the ability to play whatever they hear, however even at this stage there are definitely differences in ability. Learning to read music comes after developing the ability to play by ear. This has been primarily utilized for "Classical" training and mostly the violin. It's very successful with early students well represented in the highest ranks of musicians (Joshua Bell, Hilary Hahn are two examples). https://www.vibemusicacademy.com/blog/what-is-the-suzuki-method
Dr G's point seems reasonable, yet I play/improvise equally well saxes on Bb Eb and C saxes. It may be that someone who has perfect pitch would find this difficult. However most of us have relative pitch, which means that instead of hearing and associating a specific pitch, it's all relative, so the key is of no significance. I'm never associating a name or any other "translating attachment" to a pitch while improvising. I could stop and tell you what it was on that horn or in concert pitch, but otherwise pay no attention. The same is true for playing any tune in any key on just one instrument.
I doubt that I'm unique in this way and it's likely that anyone who is playing by ear is similar. Would love to hear from other ear players about this as I have no real knowledge about what others do, but have certainly seen many pro players who can pick up on what somebody is singing and play along without asking what key (most singers couldn't tell you anyway!).
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