Plating a mouthpiece

[Colin the Bear]

[Admin edit - split out from a yardsale thread, Kev]




You do realise that if it sounds good, it looks good, but if it looks good and sounds bad, it instantly stops looking good.

 

[QWales]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

I don't think the change of plate will make any diff to the tone of the thick metal of the mouthpiece, although it's obvious that it does on the thinner metal and larger surface area of the sax body. OK it maybe a bit anal but I would just prefer a uniform look between the sax & mouthpiece, I don't really care how it's perceived by others, I expect there impression will, as you suggest, remain unaltered.

 

[Fraser Jarvis]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

My teacher had his Lawton piece silver plated a few years back, no big deal for a local plating company.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

although it's obvious that it does on the thinner metal and larger surface area of the sax body.

Is it? Are you sure?

<steps away from the can of worms>

 

[Ads]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Opinion is strongly divided on that matter Nick .

IMO they`re best judged on a horn to horn basis regardless of Silver plating, Laquer, or RAW or what the body/bell are made of (Bronze etc) as psychological preconceptions can cloud judgement.

Fraser's idea of getting the Mpc plated sounds like a good one to me if can they leave off the table, rails & tip when doing it.. that way you get to keep a piece you`re used to AND have it match the MkVI .

 

[kernewegor]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

I don't think the change of plate will make any diff to the tone of the thick metal of the mouthpiece, although it's obvious that it does on the thinner metal and larger surface area of the sax body. OK it maybe a bit anal but I would just prefer a uniform look between the sax & mouthpiece, I don't really care how it's perceived by others, I expect there impression will, as you suggest, remain unaltered.

Hmmm. Expert comment on whether or not plating has any effect on tone can be expected at any moment...

 

[QWales]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

My teacher had his Lawton piece silver plated a few years back, no big deal for a local plating company.

Thanks Fraser, it's certainly food for thought. My only concern would be resale value if I decided to sell it on in the future. I get the impression people don't always value a piece that has been altered from standard.

 

[QWales]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Is it? Are you sure?

<steps away from the can of worms>

I guess I left out a few words there, like "seems" and "to me". And from your response and the swipe from Kernewegor I can only presume I have put 2 & 2 together and made 5. My reasoning is purely based on what I have read on forums like this and also on contrasting write ups on different saxophones which I presumed, rightly or wrongly, were created using the same metal template but with different finishes I.e. Trevor James Custom and Custom RAW. The RAW seems to be held in a much higher regard than the standard finish. If my comment above is wrong I guess I have confused plate with the actual metal used to create the sax.

 

[Saxdiva]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

I guess I left out a few words there, like "seems" and "to me". And from your response and the swipe from Kernewegor I can only presume I have put 2 & 2 together and made 5. My reasoning is purely based on what I have read on forums like this and also on contrasting write ups on different saxophones which I presumed, rightly or wrongly, were created using the same metal template but with different finishes I.e. Trevor James Custom and Custom RAW. The RAW seems to be held in a much higher regard than the standard finish. If my comment above is wrong I guess I have confused plate with the actual metal used to create the sax.

I think the comments weren't personal to you, just that the idea that different metals make a difference to tone as it's such a huge and ongoing debate - much like the one surrounding ligatures of different types.

The people who detect differences will of course say they do, whilst those that don't will say they don't. Most have a view one way or the other. All that matters is what you think. It's your gear, your choice.

 

[Saxdiva]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

BTW, how are you getting along with the new MKVI?

 

[QWales]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Thanks for clearing that up for me Saxdiva 🙂Re the MKIV: Would you believe I'm still playing my TJ Rev II. Don't get me wrong, I've had a few goes but I just don't get it. Like one of the guys said in my purchase post, it still sounds like me. I went to Sax.co.uk a couple of years ago and had the same experience with some expensive saxes and my mouthpiece. Maybe you just have to be good enough to appreciate the subtlties. One thing that bugs me is the lack of lacquer, so if you want it to remain shiney, every time you use it it needs to be cleaned. Its that or get my self a pair of those white gloves, which I'm not doing. I'll give it a bit longer but suspect it will be back on the market some time in the near future.

 

[Saxdiva]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Thanks for clearing that up for me Saxdiva 🙂Re the MKIV: Would you believe I'm still playing my TJ Rev II. Don't get me wrong, I've had a few goes but I just don't get it. Like one of the guys said in my purchase post, it still sounds like me. I went to Sax.co.uk a couple of years ago and had the same experience with some expensive saxes and my mouthpiece. Maybe you just have to be good enough to appreciate the subtlties. One thing that bugs me is the lack of lacquer, so if you want it to remain shiney, every time you use it it needs to be cleaned. Its that or get my self a pair of those white gloves, which I'm not doing. I'll give it a bit longer but suspect it will be back on the market some time in the near future.

A couple of things you could try:

There are some strips you can put in the case after cleaning which keep the tarnish at bay for much longer (so they say, never tried it myself).

on the MKVI sound, I did experiment with different mouthpieces before finding one that really complemented the sax and made it sound like I want it to. It still sounds like me, but it's a different me to the Yani/TW combination that I also play.

if there are any niggly repairs that need doing, get them done and you'll find it so nice to play.

 

[Merryfisher]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Thanks for clearing that up for me Saxdiva 🙂Re the MKIV: Would you believe I'm still playing my TJ Rev II. Don't get me wrong, I've had a few goes but I just don't get it. Like one of the guys said in my purchase post, it still sounds like me. I went to Sax.co.uk a couple of years ago and had the same experience with some expensive saxes and my mouthpiece. Maybe you just have to be good enough to appreciate the subtlties. One thing that bugs me is the lack of lacquer, so if you want it to remain shiney, every time you use it it needs to be cleaned. Its that or get my self a pair of those white gloves, which I'm not doing. I'll give it a bit longer but suspect it will be back on the market some time in the near future.

the unlaquered sax thing - no way round it me thinks, they just tarnish, pit & go green real quick no matter what you do. if you want to keep them shiney and new, don't play it:shocked: leave it in the case and just admire

 

[Clivey]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

the unlaquered sax thing - no way round it me thinks, they just tarnish, pit & go green real quick no matter what you do. if you want to keep them shiney and new, don't play it:shocked: leave it in the case and just admire

Yep. I`ve a Silver Plated Unlaquered series II clone which is sitting aside my Old Conn. The Silver horn is regularly taken as being the vintage one even although it`s over 60 years younger and receives a polish every so often . The build up of black Silver Oxide can give the horn quite a sexy patina but I`m not keen on the idea of getting that stuff into small cuts or my mouth at all so tend to keep most of it clean. Re. The finish having an effect on the sound. Raising the subject over at the TOP is seen as a mild form of Trolling or stupidity, but luckily this forum still allows debate until it starts turning nasty. ( Usually not to long)

 

[kernewegor]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

I wasn't having a swipe at all, but as Ads says above, there is a strong difference of opinion on whether plating affects tone.

If there is a difference, working from first principles I'd expect it to be small (but subtle differences in musical sound can be important, after all, can they not?) The plating is only a few microns, so the extra thickness is negligible, so I would not expect a difference in tone due to difference in wall thickness. While bells, for example, sound different when made from different materials, the sound coming out of a saxophone isn't produced by very rapid vibrations caused by striking it sharply. So my gut feeling is that whatever it is plated with - gold, silver, or whatever, or whether the instrument is made of brass, some sort of bronze, plastic or concrete won't affect the tone. But it is only a gut feeling...

In fact I believe experiments with a concrete clarinet were held to prove this. I can't query this one way or the other, not having the maths or acoustic theory nor having seen the data...

Lacquer versus no lacquer would seem to me even less likely to make a difference to tone. The thickness is less than plating.

While my gut feeling inclines me to doubt any difference, some very accomplished professionals indeed seem not to agree. Does not our own aldevis prefer an unlacquered Sequoia or two?

Brass bands are a strong tradition here in Cornwall. Some of the bands Liskeard, for example) are silver bands - I think there was a fashion for silver bands at one time. My ex-wife-to-be (very soon, as it happens) is of the opinion that silver plating is detrimental to the sound. She is an accomplished player - with a beautiful tone - and did her music degree on tenor horn with Howard Snell at the Royal Northern, so she is no mug. I have heard the same from other leading banders. On the other hand... I have heard silver band players - respected and accomplished players, too - say that silver instruments sound sweeter....

So, really, I'm pretty agnostic on this... I'll leave it to the experts to discuss.

Differences in sound between one manufacturer or model and another - or even individual examples of the same model and year - is a different matter.

But, even if some or even all of the above is still open to debate, aesthetics count, too. Saxophones are, to me, fascinating examples of craftsmanship, and it gives pleasure to own beautiful objects. Even if functionality is no different, having something with an appearance or feel that pleases you, or being made by a craftsman you admire wish to support, or something which has a history - or, if you prefer, is the latest model - if it is what you want, then go for it.

I prefer old Land Rovers, old wooden boats and younger women. My preferences in those categories are largely aesthetic - but they matter to me...

 

[Nick Wyver]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

While my gut feeling inclines me to doubt any difference, some very accomplished professionals indeed seem not to agree.

Professional musicians are just as capable of falling for the charms of snake-oil salesman as the rest of the population.

 

[altissimo]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Professional musicians are just as capable of falling for the charms of snake-oil salesman as the rest of the population.

are all the manufacturers of silver plated saxophones snake oil salesmen? Or do they just offer silver plate as an option because it looks nice?

to go back to the original point of this thread, did Lawton ever do silver plated mouthpieces? I've only ever seen stainless steel, bronze, gold plated brass and ebonite..

 

[Ads]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

are all the manufacturers of silver plated saxophones snake oil salesmen? Or do they just offer silver plate as an option because it looks nice?
..

That would be my guess - it does look nice, very nice and has a quality and depth of appearance which Nickel plate doesn`t have, it makes a horn look like its made of solid silver. The patina which forms ages gracefully and (unlike brass) predictably and you can end up with the antique look of highly polished in the main but with darker & black bits where you can`t (or don`t want to) reach .

I`m cynical about its affect on sound though, I think there can be as much difference between two cosmetically identical brass horns as between a brass one and a Silverplate one.

 

[QWales]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Just to potentialy add a little fuel... although I have never really noticed the difference on different Saxes with the same mouthpiece, the woman that takes a class I attend has a plastic Sax and that definitely sounds different using my mouthpiece.

 

[Rogerb]

Re: Swap Gold Lawton Mouthpiece for Silver

Just to potentialy add a little fuel... although I have never really noticed the difference on different Saxes with the same mouthpiece, the woman that takes a class I attend has a plastic Sax and that definitely sounds different using my mouthpiece.

I have no doubt that it does ... if all saxes sounded the same, we'd never have to buy another, just upgrade the mouthpiece 🙂
I guess hers is a Grafton? as owned by many fine players, including, iirc, our very own PT and a Bird! I heard/saw a clip of Pete King playing a Grafton .... wow! But, without looking, I wouldn't have guessed it was not metal.
(But I seem, according to the test, to have a tin ear, anyway, so that probably perceives things differently from a brass or silver one ...should I have it plated, d'you think, or maybe plastic surgery would improve it? 😀 )

Back to the OP ... I think the black tarnish on silver is Silver Sulfide ... I have a silver-plated tankard from which I occasionally drink beer, and it has a very slight taste when tarnished(just went and taste-tested it!), but I'm sure you'd keep a silver mouthpiece clean!!