Saxophones Use of plastic on saxophones?

[Damflask]

In general terms, when did plastic start to get used on saxophones?
I'm thinking in particular about left hand plastic, rather than MOP thumb buttons?
My Lignatone Baritone has one, as does my Kohler tenor. I'm asking this question so that I can make a very rough guess as to when they were made.

 

[PigSquealer]

As parts or the entire sax ?
1950 Conn 28m alto had plastic guard only.
1966 Grafton alto I think had guard & stack cover.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I suspect there's a correllation between the use of plastic thumb rests and the use of profiled thumb keys - because the earliest example of it I can think of (off the top of my head) is on the Selmer MkVI in 1954.
Prior to that date most thumb keys were of the round or teardrop shape, accompanied by a small button rest - and the few horns that had profiled thumb keys used metal rests.
Might be a few outliers out there, but I reckon early '50s is a good place to start.

 

[PigSquealer]

I suspect there's a correllation between the use of plastic thumb rests and the use of profiled thumb keys - because the earliest example of it I can think of (off the top of my head) is on the Selmer MkVI in 1954.
Prior to that date most thumb keys were of the round or teardrop shape, accompanied by a small button rest - and the few horns that had profiled thumb keys used metal rests.
Might be a few outliers out there, but I reckon early '50s is a good place to start.

I agree. Two examples I listed above. Grafton would be the first use of plastic I know of. Although for just a thumb rest I am unsure. I looked over a good selection of mid 50s saxophones and found none. Even the lower line product Pan-American and Conn Director.
Use on premium Saxophones using plastic as high tech is a good probability.

 

[thomsax]

"Plastic" is back. Here is a picture of Peter Jessen's (Copenhagen) tenor. The bow and bell is "plastic". Must cut costs?

 

[Vetinari]

Plastic main tube and its a Grafton tenor.

 

[Dr G]

Given that many (most?) knocks that a horn experiences are either in the bow or bell, what could go wrong?

 

[saxyjt]

"Plastic" is back. Here is a picture of Peter Jessen's (Copenhagen) tenor. The bow and bell is "plastic". Must cut costs?
View attachment 16328

Why not?

It's an interesting idea. Now that plastic has evolved quite a bit.

What about composites? Light and strong! Way to go. Is it not?

 

[Dr G]

Why not?

It's an interesting idea. Now that plastic has evolved quite a bit.

What about composites? Light and strong! Way to go. Is it not?

"Composites" covers the gamut of most anything in a matrix of something else. What do you have in mind that meets the metrics of durability, ease of repair, and favorable to make? Is a saxophone really so heavy that it would markedly benefit from plastics?

I once taught "Introduction to Engineering Materials" and would set problems that require a cost/benefits analysis to select appropriate materials for a task. There are good reasons to use brass. It's a pretty amazing material for this application.

 

[jbtsax]

I suspect there's a correllation between the use of plastic thumb rests and the use of profiled thumb keys - because the earliest example of it I can think of (off the top of my head) is on the Selmer MkVI in 1954.
Prior to that date most thumb keys were of the round or teardrop shape, accompanied by a small button rest - and the few horns that had profiled thumb keys used metal rests.
Might be a few outliers out there, but I reckon early '50s is a good place to start.

Years ago I played a Conn "Franken tenor" that I assembled from two Conn New Wonder "parts horns" I found in pawnshops that had the pearl button LH thumb rest. It really made my thumb hurt after a few hours of playing. I ended up reshaping the thumb key and removing the pearl and substituting a plastic jacket "button" in its place. It looked a bit odd, but it sure felt better on gigs. I eventually sold it to Jaice Singer Dumars for a good price who "had his way with it" and posted a photo on SOTW. The thumb "button" is not shown in the photo.

 

[PigSquealer]

"Plastic" is back. Here is a picture of Peter Jessen's (Copenhagen) tenor. The bow and bell is "plastic". Must cut costs?
View attachment 16328

How was this made ? Vacuum formed or 3D print.
if it is 3-D printed I would be interested in the G code.

 

[PigSquealer]

I once taught "Introduction to Engineering Materials" and would set problems that require a cost/benefits analysis to select appropriate materials for a task. There are good reasons to use brass. It's a pretty amazing material for this application.

I’m curious what the runner ups would be.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I’m curious what the runner ups would be.

Nickel silver (expensive though). Bronze (can be brittle). Copper (soft, work hardens very easily, difficult to machine).

 

[rhysonsax]

........

I once taught "Introduction to Engineering Materials" and would set problems that require a cost/benefits analysis to select appropriate materials for a task. There are good reasons to use brass. It's a pretty amazing material for this application.

I very much enjoyed the Engineering Materials section of my Engineering degree (in 1981-84), with some similar-sounding exercises about the materials used for various things including bicycle frames, telescope mirrors and car bumpers. I clearly remember the lecturer concluding what a bad solution plastics would be for bumpers and how steel was a much better solution, largely because of strength, ease of manufacture and ease of repair. And now, look at modern cars and their bumpers - largely plastic. The ease of damage and difficulty of repair is the reason why my front bumper is held together with gaffer tape and builder's expanding foam.

Rhys

 

[rhysonsax]

Of course, some Sousaphones, such as the Yamaha, have an ABS bell and Fibre-reinforced plastic body as well a brass valve section. The material selection there has to consider lightness and weather-resistance as well as durability, but presumably also ease of manufacture and accuracy of the bore. I wonder if lessons from that could be applied to larger saxophones.

Rhys

 

[Stephen Howard]

The ease of damage and difficulty of repair is the reason why my front bumper is held together with gaffer tape and builder's expanding foam.

Rhys

Expanding foam is brilliant stuff for bumper repairs. A knock may well not damage the bumper itself, but it's likely to bust the clips that hold it on - and they're often impossible to repair/replace. A little squirt of expanding foam and the job's done.
I don't know why they don't just make bumpers out of the stuff.

 

[jbtsax]

Nickel silver (expensive though). Bronze (can be brittle). Copper (soft, work hardens very easily, difficult to machine).

This quote is from the description of the relatively new Wilmington Alto sold by Music Medic. I purchased one out of curiosity to play and checkout on the bench. I find the look both unique and quite attractive.

The nickel Silver body is much more rigid than a traditional brass body and will resist bending, denting and misalignment.

 

[rhysonsax]

Expanding foam is brilliant stuff for bumper repairs. A knock may well not damage the bumper itself, but it's likely to bust the clips that hold it on - and they're often impossible to repair/replace. A little squirt of expanding foam and the job's done.
I don't know why they don't just make bumpers out of the stuff.

If you remember, it was you that pointed me at the stuff for my bumper repair. It's still holding together after two or three years.

And I still have the photo of you with your can of expanding foam - waiting for a good opportunity to share it ...

Rhys

 

[saxyjt]

"Composites" covers the gamut of most anything in a matrix of something else. What do you have in mind that meets the metrics of durability, ease of repair, and favorable to make? Is a saxophone really so heavy that it would markedly benefit from plastics?

You tell me! You're the expert, I'm not. All I know is that it's used for may thing, including many sports equipments. I was a sailor once, our big toys were made on aluminium back then, we even sang an hymn to it, a variant of Bach's Hallelujah... Now they are all build with some sort of composites, carbon fiber etc. I would have to get in touch with one of my friends from the America's cup ecosystem to know what exactly is being used now.

Now, for baritone, it would make sense!

 

[Stephen Howard]

This quote is from the description of the relatively new Wilmington Alto sold by Music Medic. I purchased one out of curiosity to play and checkout on the bench. I find the look both unique and quite attractive.

I think the phrase "much more rigid" is doing a lot of work there.
It's also laughable insomuch as there are far better ways to increase rigidity than mucking about with a limited range of materials.
For example - it looks like the sax has a bog-standard triple-point bell brace. You could make the bell and bottom bow out of nickel silver as thick as you like within reason - but it would still never be as rigid as if the bell brace was a four-pointer (with an additional arm across the body).
If you really wanted to go the whole hog you could put a smaller brace further down the bell. Then it'd be really rigid.

At the sort of thickness of metal found on sax bodies, claims of material rigidity are just so much marketing w**k.