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Pete's Harlem Nocturne

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
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Can any of you pc guys tell me where to find pete's rendition of Harlem Nocturne that he posted on the site some time ago, thanks in anticipation....john
 

Chris98

Senior Member
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1,093
Hi John,

It's on Pete's latest CD: http://www.petethomas.co.uk/midnight.html

... And you can buy it from iTunes if you wanted just the one track. I bought Harlem Nocturne when Pete put it up to buy on his site, but I'm can't find that link anymore. I have a slight problem with this tune ever since Jules directed me to it all those years ago, I've started collecting versions!

Pete, any likelihood of the sheet music and a backing track for this one? I notice it's in the same key as the Hal Leonard version - Vol. 105 - Soulful Jazz, but yours has quite a different feel, nice and sleazy - and I mean that with all due respect.

All the best,

Chris
 

Pete Thomas

Chief of Stuff
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Pete, any likelihood of the sheet music and a backing track for this one? I notice it's in the same key as the Hal Leonard version - Vol. 105 - Soulful Jazz, but yours has quite a different feel, nice and sleazy - and I mean that with all due respect.
No sheet music, there would be copyright issues. The backing track may be possible though.
 

Chris98

Senior Member
Messages
1,093
No sheet music, there would be copyright issues. The backing track may be possible though.
Hi Pete,

The backing track would be great, and it would be a good exercise to try and work out what you're playing.

All the best,

Chris
 

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
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Hi Chris

Thanks for that I hadn't realised it was on midnight in the city which I already have a copy of,silly me....john
 

Chris98

Senior Member
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1,093
Hi Chris

Thanks for that I hadn't realised it was on midnight in the city which I already have a copy of,silly me....john
Yeah, but wouldn't you really like to have the backing track too John? I figure if we can get a few of us to be real keen, Pete might just be persuaded to make it available ;}

have a good weekend,

Chris
 

Pete Thomas

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Yeah, but wouldn't you really like to have the backing track too John? I figure if we can get a few of us to be real keen, Pete might just be persuaded to make it available ;}
Well, it's about time I added something to the paid subscribers area.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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Occurred to me that it may be possible to commission a transcription of Pete's version. But how does copyright work there? Am I entitled to make a personal transcriiption?
 

Pete Thomas

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Occurred to me that it may be possible to commission a transcription of Pete's version. But how does copyright work there? Am I entitled to make a personal transcriiption?
This is complex, I will give a long answer later today (hopefully)
 

Pete Thomas

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Here's a longer answer:

Copyright laws were made to deal with protection of a work of art. So in music that can mean somebody's composition and generally the copyright lies in the melody. Sombody can use the same rhythm the same chord changes, but only when using the same melody is it theft of copyright.

So how does this apply to improvised solos?

The problem is nobody thought of that when they drafted those laws. By necessity the protection had to include arrangements and adaptations of the work, and an improvised solo is construed by the copyright owner as an adaptation, ie it wouldn't exist without the original work: it is inspired by and dependent on that tune.

I'm not sure this has ever been put to a test case, which is of course where these laws are refined by a judge/jury setting a precedent.

I have asked the MCPS/PRS who owns the copyright in an improvised solo and they were unequivocal that it's owned by the composer of the melody.

(NB: we are discussing composer copyright, not copyright in the recording production, which is a different thing and owned by the record label and/or performer)

So technically and theoretically, publishing a transcribed solo without (edited) permission of the owner of the composition (NOT the player) is an infringement.

However these things generally go under the radar of most publishers as there is so little money involved.

For Taming The Saxophone I have a blanket licence to cover use of extracts of copyright music, I don't have that on Cafesaxophone which is why we can't publish copyright music on here.
 

rhysonsax

Well-Known Member
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4,377
So technically and theoretically, publishing a transcribed solo with permission of the owner of the composition (NOT the player) is an infringement.

I guess that should be without ?

Interesting, but not very convincing to me.

I would have thought that a composer would have rights to the harmony (i.e. chord changes) of their tune, provided that this is reasonably novel (i.e. not just the changes to an existing standard). But there are several books and websites around that publish the changes to jazz tunes but not the melody "for copyright reasons".

To me, an improvised solo on those changes (provided it is not just a minor variation on the original melody) is further away from the composer's creation than the harmony itself.

But there again, what has common sense got to do with the law ?

I know that Curtis Swift of saxsolos.com has transcribed thousands of solos, including at least four by Pete Thomas (three off "Midnight in the Naked City") and eight versions of "Harlem Nocturne". He will transcribe pretty much any sax solo on request and for a moderate payment.

I know that doesn't make it legal !

Rhys
 

Dave McLaughlin

Sesquipedalian
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I have asked the MCPS/PRS who owns the copyright in an improvised solo and they were unequivocal that it's owned by the composer of the melody.
IANAL, but I'm surprised at that. It would seem to me that an improvised solo falls squarely within the definition of a derivative work at http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_derivative_works.en.htm. But I'm sure MCPS/PRS's legal advice is better than my ignorant guess. And of course, if my interpretation was correct, you'd need the composer's permission every time you wanted to improvise a solo!

So technically and theoretically, publishing a transcribed solo with permission of the owner of the composition (NOT the player) is an infringement.
A minor quibble - I'm sure you meant to say "...without permission..."
 

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
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3,409
Hi John,

It's on Pete's latest CD: http://www.petethomas.co.uk/midnight.html

... And you can buy it from iTunes if you wanted just the one track. I bought Harlem Nocturne when Pete put it up to buy on his site, but I'm can't find that link anymore. I have a slight problem with this tune ever since Jules directed me to it all those years ago, I've started collecting versions!

Pete, any likelihood of the sheet music and a backing track for this one? I notice it's in the same key as the Hal Leonard version - Vol. 105 - Soulful Jazz, but yours has quite a different feel, nice and sleazy - and I mean that with all due respect.

All the best,

Chris
I suppose you must have the 42 versions list bookmarked on ebay then unfortunately Pete's isn't among them....john
 

Two Voices

Senior Member
Messages
1,113
I just want to assertion I understand this correctly. To keep it simple, if I publish any of the transcriptions I’ve made of other artists on my website to be freely downloaded as a pdf file would in fact be an infringement of copyright.

i.e. I transcribed John Coltrane “Love Supreme” and it took me several weeks to do, but if I was to upload it to my website I would in fact be liable for a copyright infringement?

However, if I was to record myself playing the transcription and upload it as a record then I wouldn’t be liable for any infringement?

One other thing, if I was to say take “Love Supreme” and arrange it including the melody to a small degree, would I still be infringement to publish as a pdf file on my website?

Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood!
 

Pete Thomas

Chief of Stuff
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13,979
I just want to assertion I understand this correctly. To keep it simple, if I publish any of the transcriptions I’ve made of other artists on my website to be freely downloaded as a pdf file would in fact be an infringement of copyright.


i.e. I transcribed John Coltrane “Love Supreme” and it took me several weeks to do, but if I was to upload it to my website I would in fact be liable for a copyright infringement?


I believe it would infringe the copyright, however a legal action would be extremely unlikely

However, if I was to record myself playing the transcription and upload it as a record then I wouldn’t be liable for any infringement?
You can record any previously published composition and release as a CD, gramophone record or download, provided the mechanical licence is granted. It would make no difference whether you did a cover of Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep or A Love Supreme. Or a medley of the two. Actually, it may be different for medleys, I think you may need specific permission for a medley as opposed to getting an automatic licence from MCPS.

One other thing, if I was to say take “Love Supreme” and arrange it including the melody to a small degree, would I still be infringement to publish as a pdf file on my website?
It would, unless you got permission from the copyright owner. But again, doubtful they would take action, even if they noticed it.

In other words, you personally can not hold a composition copyright in a transcription or an arrangement unless the tune is already in the public domain, ie its copyright has expired or it never had one.

This may be changing due to test cases in regard to modern genres where there is no melody as such, e.g. some techno music, in which the only defining factor of originality may be the "arrangement" of electronic sounds, loops and samples.

The changes are not due to changes in the wording of the law, but may be in legal precedents set by test cases.

But with traditional or tonal music, copyright lies purely in the melody and adaptations thereof.
 

Two Voices

Senior Member
Messages
1,113
Thanks for the clarification Pete. :thumb: It’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a while now but had been giving me headaches.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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Assuming that an artist creates personalised version of a song and it's a derivative work, wouldn't the original song copyright remain with the orignal owner, and the changes be the copyright of the artist?
 

Two Voices

Senior Member
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1,113
Assuming that an artist creates personalised version of a song and it's a derivative work, wouldn't the original song copyright remain with the orignal owner, and the changes be the copyright of the artist?
That's what I was thinking about with my own arrangements. As it’s not like a transcription as everything has been re-arranged sufficiently enough to be different including the melody yet keeping the essence of the original score.
 
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