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billythorn

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Do all Buescher saxes have "snap-in" pads? Want to re-pad a 70s Aristocrat tenor (made by Selmer) and want to use std pads.
 

jbtsax

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I believe that the models after Buescher was purchased by Selmer discontinued the use of snap-ins. There are members here with more expertise in vintage saxes who can either correct or verify that statement. It would be easy to visually see if the resonator was a snap on. You can also remove a pad to see if the key cup has a "spud". Sometimes the "spuds" have been ground away to allow the installation of regular pads.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
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I also believe Buescher-engraved horns abandoned snap-ins in the 70's. I cannot say with 100% surety.

It is simple enough to tell, yourself, however.

Look at the existing pads, are they domed metal resonators, no rivet in the resonator ? If not, then those are standard pads.

If it 'looks like' they are domed metal no rivet, simply take off one key, an easy key...like a palm key or maybe the side C key. If you don't have a pad spatula, take a butter knife, gently slide tip of it between leather and resonator and then put pressure in the upward direction and see if it pops off.

If it doesn't you can use whatever pads you like. If in fact it has snaps, as JBT notes those can be removed by a tech by grinding them flat using a dremel-type tool. If this were a 1950's 'Crat, one may take pause to consider whether they really wanna grind out the spuds (due to resale/market value)...but on a late, post-Selmer buyout Buescher, IMHO - do it if necessary.
 
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billythorn

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Thanks for the info..I did try to snap off pad and it was indeed a std shellac install..pads have plastic dome resonators, so probably not ever snap-ons. I do own a 50's top hat alto and would not want to attempt to re-pad myself. I know there are pads available for snap on replacements, but can you get actual snap-on pads?
 

jbtsax

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I know there are pads available for snap on replacements, but can you get actual snap-on pads?
There are metal back replicas of the original Buescher pads available from Ferree's. They have a limited number of sizes, and my experience with them is that they are too thick although I have read mixed reviews. All of the Buesches with snap-ons I have restored have been done using regular .160 " pads with the center hole punched larger to accept the snap. They work just fine. Some Buescher purists argue that the metal backs are necessary to give the keys the correct "feel" and weight. The rest of us like myself think that is quite farfetched. ;)
 

JayeNM

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New Mexico, US
MusicMedic.com will supply any of their pads with larger holes stamped in 'em so they can be used with the Buescher snaps, too. You just have to note "please stamp the pads for Buescher snap-ons"

Indeed if you are not a professional tech....I would NEVER suggest to anyone to attempt a DIY repad using the Buescher snap system. It can be tricky.
 

just saxes

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Buescher snap ons look a lot like Prestini domed metal resos, but smaller than you'd normally see on modern work, and less smooth. Their surface has sort of a little tiny nub (but sometimes not) with tons of shallow, circular ridges emanating out from the center (has a sort of "satin" look, as opposed to the smooth of the Prestini). If you want to emulate original Buescher specs, but don't have snap-ins, Prestini about 1/3-1/2 the diameter of the pad is about right.

There are a lot of different solutions when you do have snap-ins, but it sounds like you don't so....
 

just saxes

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There are metal back replicas of the original Buescher pads available from Ferree's. They have a limited number of sizes, and my experience with them is that they are too thick although I have read mixed reviews. All of the Buesches with snap-ons I have restored have been done using regular .160 " pads with the center hole punched larger to accept the snap. They work just fine. Some Buescher purists argue that the metal backs are necessary to give the keys the correct "feel" and weight. The rest of us like myself think that is quite farfetched. ;)
They are quite thick, but the correct pad for the job. If using other pads, the metal backings from original pads can be attached to thin pads (e.g. Conn "Reso-Pads" from Ferrees thickness or Pisoni thin), or thicker pads (e.g. thicker Pisoni) can go straight in. As above, you'll need to enlarge the center holes to adapt normal pads with pre-punched center holes to allow the stems of the snap-ins to go through.

Snaps are tricky and not-tricky. The main problem you will tend to run into is that some snaps can be loose and not want to snap-in (adhere to the cup mountings) dependably. To correct that requires some care. If you ruin one, you may or may not be able to rescue it, so it's one of those "do it one time, right, and carefully" situations.

The Ferree's for Buescher are a pressed felt pad that would feel very spongy if not for the backing. IMO if using a different pad, avoid pressed-felt and go for woven instead if you aren't a fan of spongy feeling action.
 

jbtsax

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I can only share my experience with Ferree's "Buescher pads". The shop I worked in had a "set" of the B60 pads for alto sax, and I tried a few of them on a True Tone I was overhauling. The metal back B60 pads were too thick and would have required bending every key cup to use them. The following photos show my findings.

1596156917389.jpeg


1596156984410.jpeg
 

thomsax

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I can only share my experience with Ferree's "Buescher pads". The shop I worked in had a "set" of the B60 pads for alto sax, and I tried a few of them on a True Tone I was overhauling. The metal back B60 pads were too thick and would have required bending every key cup to use them. The following photos show my findings.

View attachment 15087

View attachment 15088
Was it the original Snap-On pads (or type) before you tried the B60 pad? I have a Buescher soprano that've been modified. Not by me, a good reapair shop on New Jersey. No spuds and modern thinner pads are installed. The keys are also adjusted to work well with thinnr pads. If I try a B60 pad on my Bb soprano it will also hit the back. I can use a B60 pad on my Buescher C-soprano with original Snap-On system with "spuds and botton". No adhedsive (shellack ). The Snap-On system was great in the 20's !!!! My modified Buesher TT Bb soprano LP-122 1928 is a better player than my original Buescher TT C-soprano. The Snap-On system pads was not glued. But I can understand that a tech want to secure with shellack or glue.
 

jbtsax

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I can use a B60 pad on my Buescher C-soprano with original Snap-On system with "spuds and botton". No adhedsive (shellack ). The Snap-On system was great in the 20's !!!! My modified Buesher TT Bb soprano LP-122 1928 is a better player than my original Buescher TT C-soprano. The Snap-On system pads was not glued. But I can understand that a tech want to secure with shellack or glue.
The True Tone soprano in the photos below was padded with Music Medic white roo pads. The .160" thick pad with a bit of shellac was the correct thickness for this instrument. I like to first seat the pad with shellac, and then add the snap. Then I make slight adjustments if adding the snap changes the seating. The photo below shows the pad "protuberance" from the key cup. I "fell in love" with the look of white roo pads with silver resonators on a silver plated saxophone when I saw a display of Bueschers that were done by Curt Altarac at a repair conference and have used that combination ever since.

1596209282009.jpeg
 

just saxes

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I can only share my experience with Ferree's "Buescher pads". The shop I worked in had a "set" of the B60 pads for alto sax, and I tried a few of them on a True Tone I was overhauling. The metal back B60 pads were too thick and would have required bending every key cup to use them. The following photos show my findings.

View attachment 15087

View attachment 15088
Just two things:

The original Buescher pads are also unusually thick (originally), relative to just about any other horn, and the cups and hardware are designed for that, and (2) the woven felt on the modern Ferree's is extremely spongy.

There are a bunch of things to installing them as far as working around it (compressing/ironing the felt, testing first before setting the pad in place (there actually IS wiggle room, though slight, and if you already know it's going to hit first in back if you press the pad into the cup flat, you can change the way you pressure it in to gain a small amount of wiggle room). But probably you do generally need to do a small amount of bending (a worse prospect for the customer with some techs rather than others, depending on how that will turn out).

Because the pressed felt is so thick and spongy, the skins/felts will also take a deep impression, and that's the correct way to install them (with a deep tonehole impression) because if you don't create one they will compress quickly and the installation will fail (via gaps in the rears of pads) unduly quickly. For a pro that gigs every night, or more than once a day, an installation with shallow impressions would probably wear out (harden, with the felts shrinking and creating gaps at the rears of pads) within 2 years. With any pressed felt, IMO, for hard working pro's, that is a consideration -- less so for hobbyists or people who only really play more than 1 hour a few times per week on average.

If you can get a pad you like better that has a metal backing, then you have a second source but for most techs (good or bad cup benders) Ferree's will be the source, so as long as you don't damage the cups badly by bending them you're setting up the cups' "new normal."

We're both aware that it's a much more unpleasant job to repair or restore cups that have been bent out of their original shape to acccomodate a thicker pad rather than a thinner one, but if I'm doing a job for a client that is likely to go to someone else in the future (i.e. not local to me, by mail), then IMO the best choice for them is likely to accomodate the Ferree's Buescher pads.

I personally would rather put in the thick Pisoni L-D, without a metal backing, for a Buescher for my own use if I think I'm going to keep it a long time. The firmness is ultimately about the same, metal backed Buescher pad vs Pisoni L-D with woven felt.
 

thomsax

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3,712
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Sweden
Do all Buescher saxes have "snap-in" pads? Want to re-pad a 70s Aristocrat tenor (made by Selmer) and want to use std pads.
I'm pretty sure the new Buescher I sold back in the late 70's had no Snap-On system. It was "water down" Buescher 400 saxes. No fancy engraving, nickelplaed keys .... but still good saxes. But they just couldn't compete with the new B&S Blue Label saxes that were sold for half of the price. Even Corton Deluxe (Yani stencils) were sold for less money. 0.160" (4,0 mm) or 0.165" (4,7 mm) thick, plain pads (just a rivet) or with resonators ..... ???? What I think is important is that you install the same type of pad when you must re-place a pad. I have seen saxes with 4-5 diffent types of pads, differnt thickness.
 

just saxes

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Typo clarification for my last post: the 1st full paragraph should read "... (2) the pressed felt on the modern Ferree's is extremely spongy. " Probably self-evident to techs but confusing otherwise.
 
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