Pad glue necessary?

[Alc.]

I have a pad question. My recent addition of a Conn tenor had several shabby-looking pads. It played fine, but two pads were down to cotton, so I took a chance. I received the new pads and found my small screwdriver. Luckily for me, the two keys were palm C and high F#. They have got to be the two easiest to re-pad, because I DID IT! They were really easy to remove, and the pads popped out with the aid of my small screwdriver. My question is, when I put the new pads in the cups, they wedged in snugly that I wonder, do I really need glue? If you answer 'yes' then I'll probably have a problem getting them out of the cups again. Have I outsmarted myself? First time I ever attempted sax repair.

 

[Fraser Jarvis]

Yes they deffo need glue, so you have definitely outsmarted yoursen innit. Winkle em out wiv a small screwdriva an wak um bak wiv a bit ov shellak innit? yeah?

 

[Alc.]

Believe it or not, I understood what you said. Must be the two weeks I spent in Picadilly/Soho about 50+ years ago. O.K., I'll put a bit of something sticky behind the pads. I'm thinking silicone or something that won't require blasting to get them out again. Thanks.

 

[jbtsax]

If the pads are firmly in the key cups and are sealing the tonehole, I'm inclined to say leave well enough alone for now. If one comes loose in the future, you can always add glue at that time. In any event I would strongly suggest that you use hot glue. Lots of techs use that on sax pads (I'm not one of them) and it is easily accessible.

Typically when installing pads, the key is removed from the sax, the keycup is heated to release the old pad and then the old glue is cleaned out with a Q-tip or cloth over your finger and alcohol. You then melt a bit of the hot glue to the back of the pad, insert it into the keycup, heat the keycup a bit and give the pad 1/4 turn.

 

[kevgermany]

If you leave the pads as they are and they fall out, you'll find it difficult to get the tonehole imprint to line up properly. At the very least mark the pad where the key arm joins the cup.

For glue I prefer shellac. Seems to have a longer time where you can adjust the pad. But jbtsax does this all the time.

If you have an older European sax, you may find the pad glue is white/slightly pink. This is Kitt or sealing wax.

 

[Ads]

Is there a reason why Evostik isn`t used ? apart from that these prehistoric adhesives like hot animal glue and shellac were around when the sax was invented ? Evostik is easy to clean up if the pad needs replacing and can even allow movement so long as you don`t use it as a contact adhesive ? .

 

[Colin the Bear]

I use a dab of evo stick or similar and seat the pad while it's wet. I have used silicone but it takes a long time to cure and releases acetic acid which may tarnish unlacquered parts.

 

[majordennis]

When you heat the cup to settle the pad I was taught to let the closed ones set under their own spring pressure and the open ones under approximate finger pressure, be interested to know if this is how other techs do it?

 

[kevgermany]

Is there a reason why Evostik isn`t used ? apart from that these prehistoric adhesives like hot animal glue and shellac were around when the sax was invented ? Evostik is easy to clean up if the pad needs replacing and can even allow movement so long as you don`t use it as a contact adhesive ? .

You need something with bulk that allows you to move the pad in the cup to get a perfect seal. Effectively the glue allows the pad to float in the cup. Later as the pad goes out of alignment, you need to be able to adjust it. With shellac and hot glue this is the case. Ordinary contact adhesives like evostick don't work like that.

 

[Ads]

so you mean that you need to move the pad after many minutes or hours after its been fitted ? so that a re-softenable adhesive allows this by heating the key. I didn`t realise that

 

[kevgermany]

Ideally you get it right first time. But pads get compressed if you're not careful. And then as they regain the original shape they leak. And with time as knocks, wear sets in again come the leaks. Those tone hole indentations affect the pad/tonehole geometry.

A good tech pads, allows it to rest overnight, then checks/corrects. After this the sax should go back once a year or so for lubrication, and pad seating.

 

[majordennis]

so you mean that you need to move the pad after many minutes or hours after its been fitted ? so that a re-softenable adhesive allows this by heating the key. I didn`t realise that

I usually leave them for a day or so and then re-check, it does take a while for a new pad to settle properly, be very careful when heating the pad cup in situ, collateral damage is very easy to inflict, you settle one pad nicely and find you have incinerated an adjacent one.

 

[kevgermany]

Yes, or the corks

 

[Ads]

A good tech pads, allows it to rest overnight, then checks/corrects. After this the sax should go back once a year or so for lubrication, and pad seating.

So thrashing the nips off one for nearly 30 years without a service (apart from a squirt of 3 in one once in the 90s) wasn`t a great idea then .. Didn`t think so - hence why I no longer have a MkVII .....

to be honest, I didn`t even know that saxes had to be regularily serviced before discovering SOTW just before I registered here - the usual thing around here to was to fix em when bits fell off or got so leaky that the press harder technique didn`t work and saddle soap didn`t sort it ..

I know now of course and will be sending the Yam off to Stephen Howard at some stage for a service - the C-Mel too - thankfully all the horns I`ve owned since the MkVII have been AFTER joining the forum and therefore are 100% Bodge free ................

 

[majordennis]

Sorry Kev crossed with your "resting" post. Does anyone have any tips for not burning adjacent equipment, being the Mr Clumsy I am I've tried various methods, some more successful than others.

 

[thomsax]

So thrashing the nips off one for nearly 30 years without a service (apart from a squirt of 3 in one once in the 90s) wasn`t a great idea then .. Didn`t think so - hence why I no longer have a MkVII .....

to be honest, I didn`t even know that saxes had to be regularily serviced before discovering SOTW just before I registered here - the usual thing around here to was to fix em when bits fell off or got so leaky that the press harder technique didn`t work and saddle soap didn`t sort it ..

I know now of course and will be sending the Yam off to Stephen Howard at some stage for a service - the C-Mel too - thankfully all the horns I`ve owned since the MkVII have been AFTER joining the forum and therefore are 100% Bodge free ................

I use to send my Yamaha 25 tenor to a Yamaha tech twice a year for service (cleaning, oiling, adjustments and 2-3 pads are changed it nessecary). This costs c £ 160.00-170.00. My older horns I try to keep in good playing condition myself or /and with help from friends. Better to have a cheap and less advanged sax that plays well instead of a pro sax that you can't afford to keep in good playing condition?

 

[thomsax]

I use shellac on my saxes. And I also use alhohol lamp and blowpipe; low temp. Saxophone repair is not paying my bills. So I'm not in a hurry.

 

[Ads]

I. Better to have a cheap and less advanged sax that plays well instead of a pro sax that you can't afford to keep in good playing condition?

Was a case of ignorance as much as anything on my part (and many others too) , you just fixed stuff when it broke like you did with synths, guitars, amps etc . I know better now ..

 

[kevgermany]

Sorry Kev crossed with your "resting" post. Does anyone have any tips for not burning adjacent equipment, being the Mr Clumsy I am I've tried various methods, some more successful than others.

Small flame, very careful positioning of the sax. I use a small gas torch, in a home made stand that holds it upright or on its back, as needed.

 

[Alc.]

Am I on the right site, or what? Thanks to you all for the advice/suggestions. I'm taking notes as I read.