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Original ....And The Bullfighter Wept..me guitar/sax

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
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3,312
Me on guitar and sax,simple sad piece about a true story of a matador that broke down in the heat of battle as the bull would not fight back.He looked into the bulls eyes and could not go on.He then retired from bullfighting and now is 1 of leading anti bullfighting advocates.

 
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Wade Cornell

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2,145
Great to hear you working the story and emotional side of music. Great tone and phrasing with each line reinforcing. Just to let you know I'm really listening I heard some bad edits in there. 2:44 was not very good, but we both know that most people wouldn't hear it unless listening very closely.

Keep it up as you're setting a great example by embodying those elements that can deliver so much more. Unfortunately it seems 90% of those studying sax concentrate on technique and don't realize the potential of melodic thinking and delivering emotionally. It's about communication and telling your version of a story, even if you're playing a standard or some pop tune. Most audiences could care less about watching or listening to someone who has great chops but nothing to say other than "watch me, I'm great".
 

Chris

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Davey it's nice to hear you take the listener on an emotional journey.

Chris..
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
Great to hear you working the story and emotional side of music. Great tone and phrasing with each line reinforcing. Just to let you know I'm really listening I heard some bad edits in there. 2:44 was not very good, but we both know that most people wouldn't hear it unless listening very closely.

Keep it up as you're setting a great example by embodying those elements that can deliver so much more. Unfortunately it seems 90% of those studying sax concentrate on technique and don't realize the potential of melodic thinking and delivering emotionally. It's about communication and telling your version of a story, even if you're playing a standard or some pop tune. Most audiences could care less about watching or listening to someone who has great chops but nothing to say other than "watch me, I'm great".
Davey it's nice to hear you take the listener on an emotional journey.

Chris..
Wade ,Nice to hear you enjoyed my vision on this amazing story.I tryed to sort out that edit but had cut it off to quick,tryed a few fade outs but its there atad but i'm still rather happy as i think i've got the feel and gotten what i wanted to say about this true story.

Chris, i love spanish music.When i heard about this story yesterday i rushed up to my studio to do my take on it.Good that you felt something about my version also.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
Davey, I don't often comment on anyone's music here. Especially with touchy gits.... You've posted some great stuff.

This is superb. Your best yet. Really enjoyed it. Fits the story perfectly.

For me it's not complete- maybe it needs to run into the ex-matador's anti bullfight fight, dunno. I wish I could think sonically this way, it grabs me on an emotional level, something that is a special gift - you're not just stringing notes together from some pattern. It's your soul coming through. More please.
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
Davey, I don't often comment on anyone's music here. Especially with touchy gits.... You've posted some great stuff.

This is superb. Your best yet. Really enjoyed it. Fits the story perfectly.

For me it's not complete- maybe it needs to run into the ex-matador's anti bullfight fight, dunno. I wish I could think sonically this way, it grabs me on an emotional level, something that is a special gift - you're not just stringing notes together from some pattern. It's your soul coming through. More please.
Yea i can be a touchy git :))):))):))) Good to see you like it.I done it very quick and i think if i go back on it i would not get that raw sadness again.Its like a great painter,is the art ever really finished.Its a funny 1 to get better or for the worse.I'm glad you could also get inside the vision.Sometimes less is more and sometimes more is better.:confused: I wonder if leaving it like this is fresh as people expect more,now i'm getting REALLY confused...:))):))):)))
 

Mike

Senior Member
Messages
559
Dave, if I may.........I tried to approach this as objectively as I could with the knowledge I do
have concerning conceptual writing.


I have no quarrels with your saxophone playing on this piece.
You have tone, range, and in my opinion, in these types of pieces, you can control the rhythm
without it having it control you. Works like this, I think, are your mainstay.


Now the bread and butter of the piece....
What about the bull? I'm assuming your sax is the thought process/emotion behind the matador, correct?
Well, in conceptual writing it's important to encompass, I feel, the element, because there are two organism's involved who have emotion. Imagination surely could summon up a bull's point of view. If you combined both species as a saxophone emotive, then I don't get it at all.


I'm guessing that wasn't important, but in conceptual writing, it is important. However, being that the guitar/Bull (?) is static, the saxophone doesn't actually deviate from a static thought process because the guitar/Bull(?) is not providing variation in harmony to depict a mirrored emotion regarding why the bull refused to fight back. Why would a bull not be inclined to kill? Not typical of a bull in this type of environment and so in that regard imagination goes into action. However, I know this wasn't essentially on your mind. It would require thought before execution. Yes/No?


Now understand, this is only from a conceptual point of view. The music, if of it's own, is okay and it could relate to a number of poignant concepts. Being that I've been a conceptual composer for quite a few years this is how I come to terms when I read in the prelude that this work is conceptual in nature, as you stated.
So when I read what you were writing about, my imagination became focused.
Additionally, before I listened I imagined the scenerio and I went into the piece with what my imagination summoned up, which is what I usually do. That's my gauge. It's a personal one of course. Granted....


I understand perfectly your approach to this concept. This concept is an imaginations dream and you wanted spontaneity instead. You wouldn't want the 'People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) on your case for dismissing an animals right to emotion, do you? (my typical sarcasm insert)


The bottom line is the 'bull' makes this story because if the bull acted like a 'normal' bull in this setting the matador would have done exactly what every matador does when confronted with a bull who wants to kill him. Therefore, not much of a story because of it's typical nature. My imagination went inside the bull's mind ( could I do that?) and not so much the matador's. There's a universe inside the bull.


Too conceptual a critique? Hey, it breaks up the usual niceities, doesn't it?
 

Wade Cornell

Well-Known Member
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2,145
I'm not coming to anyone's defense, but from a musical point of view there is a difference between conceptual music and programmatic music. They are not the same. Creating the emotional atmosphere, sympathy, pathos, disillusionment, etc. doesn't require various points of view or a narrative. As an example Ravel's "Pavane pour une infate defunte" is certainly conceptional but has no program or particular point of view. It just creates an emotional ambiance, and boy is that powerful!

It may be that if Davey's tried to convey those points of view or was more programmatic that it would be more powerful or better. Maybe not. But it also works as it is.
[h=3][/h]
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
@ Mike..... Wow that was way indepth :shocked: you lost me very quickly.All i can say is its a sad piece of spanish music with my vision in there.Theres no guitar bull,sax this or that.Its just pure music.When i posted Castles in the sky the dance track you wrote a longish thing on companys making this kind of music for 1 thing.That may be true but hey i love the song for its music.No thinking involved,just i like it,recorded it.When you hear my other duo stuff by my original duo Jewel i title it as soundscapes.The bullfighter was also called this.Your concept is not mine thats for sure.I play ,record very quick without much thinking or prep.The main focus is the title,story i have in my head.I try a few quick thing then close my eyes and try to get right into the simple piece with my head but most important my heart.I have nothing against your concept but thats your way,this is mine.It took many years to enjoy my own sound,feeling and playing and to be self assured that only playing a few notes work great.I have stated a few times about the 2 main guys i like playing and there no way standard ,American song book players.Andy Sheppard and Jan Garbarek.I try to come with that concept in my playing and when a think of an original tune.Very much World folk music soundscapes.As for the bull the harsh Altissimo notes were a cry of pain from the bull.Its what i wanted it to sound like and no more,no less.I'm happy with the way i got a very sad overall feel and sound.I find your way of working can,could spoil a true raw piece of a soundscape for me and what i want.I find opinions say on a great standard or other know music theres a place for the opinion but not so much on a orininal piece :shocked: why you may ask well its what the player wanted in his head,heart and vision so when someone says you could or should of done this or that well then it would not be 1's original tune,soundscape and vision.It would be what the listener wanted.
 

Mike

Senior Member
Messages
559
I'm not coming to anyone's defense, but from a musical point of view there is a difference between conceptual music and programmatic music. They are not the same. Creating the emotional atmosphere, sympathy, pathos, disillusionment, etc. doesn't require various points of view or a narrative. As an example Ravel's "Pavane pour une infate defunte" is certainly conceptional but has no program or particular point of view. It just creates an emotional ambiance, and boy is that powerful!

It may be that if Davey's tried to convey those points of view or was more programmatic that it would be more powerful or better. Maybe not. But it also works as it is.
Yes, Wade, I cannot disagree with you, only one thing though.......
This post/critique was written out of parody.....But no one would know that because
in two dimensions it's difficult to see beyond the word, at times. Meaning, I purposely wrote
it in the style I chose.....Eccentric? Yeah, a bit....But I enjoyed writing it. I happen to like using the written word just as much as using the played 'note'.


Davey's choice of music/topic provoked a parodied 'skit'
out of me. I really didn't want to come on and write the same old things. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything?
Sure, but the bull fight scene was too good to pass up!


Did I like his music? It was okay, but some really enjoyed it more than I did and I'm happy for that. Davey knows that if I really like something of his I let him know it!


I wanted to be creative in a theatrical way in responding. Davey, in my opinion, usually expects
to be confronted with niceities. And when he gets confronted with something not to his liking
he takes issue with it, because as he puts it, he's being an individual. Hence my parody.


Davey is a good saxophone player and he puts out an awful lot of work!
Out of desire, I did not want to come on here and say the same old stuff. I know exactly how my post
came off as and controversial issues never persuaded me to deter in a direction of benignity.

All the world's a stage
Shakespeare
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
I wanted to be creative in a theatrical way in responding. Davey, in my opinion, usually expects
to be confronted with niceities. And when he gets confronted with something not to his liking
he takes issue with it, because as he puts it, he's being an individual. Hence my parody.




All the world's a stage
Shakespeare
Nice to hear i expect nicities.Sounds like your still not happy with me saying the KING word!!!!!!!!! >:) yes British humour :))):))):))).We went around and around this before about being confronted.I dont take issuse with it i just have my say on it.After all its a chat room and just because you or someone else says something i do have the right to say if i agree or not.As for my say i think you think wayyyyyy to much about music.For me its about the joy of the music and not getting bogged down in a full page why,if and how.As for an individual well after hearing most on here and on SOTW i do offer a wayyyy broader choice of music,styles so i stand up to that title.
 

Mike

Senior Member
Messages
559
Nice to hear i expect nicities.Sounds like your still not happy with me saying the KING word!!!!!!!!! >:) yes British humour :))):))):))).We went around and around this before about being confronted.I dont take issuse with it i just have my say on it.After all its a chat room and just because you or someone else says something i do have the right to say if i agree or not.As for my say i think you think wayyyyyy to much about music.For me its about the joy of the music and not getting bogged down in a full page why,if and how.As for an individual well after hearing most on here and on SOTW i do offer a wayyyy broader choice of music,styles so i stand up to that title.
Yes, Davey, I know...But come on man, you usually say all the same things about how you approach your craft....For instance 'you close your eyes'. You don't have to keep letting the world know just how passionate a musician you are. I get it.


Davey, I just felt you needed a bit of opposition for a change. I know we don't think alike or approach
music the same way which we shouldn't. But I find art in many elements, not just music.
If someone tells you what they heard instead of what your intention was, you correct them and say that you're being an individual. It's like your mantra.


Do I think you're a fine musician? Yes, without a doubt. Do I feel you have a hard time with critique not to your liking? Yes, without a doubt. This is the net and you're subjecting your music and a lot of music at that. Out of element I see imagination in response that may not always pertain to what you're looking for. Which means, none of this is serious stuff here and it's all a game in reality. We post music
because it's like a kindergarten attitude of 'show n' tell'.....it's nice when some people enjoy what ever it is we do, but it should still be cool if someone comes on and tells us that it wasn't to their liking. Okay, you didn't hit home.
As I've said so many times, which may be my mantra....It's easy to have our music liked....No character is built if we become defensive regarding neagative association with our music.


How dare me! lol....


To be fair, yes, I'm glad that your choice of music recently is based on concept and I admire that passion. But don't always expect from me what you might expect. I'm only take this road with you, or possibly Wade, because I've heard an awful lot of your work and have a small inclincation of your background. So, I don't have to be concerned of your psyche. You've been around and have been playing for quite some time. Just roll with the punches man!


No...the King statement was still out of parody too...ya see Davey, I'm not at all concerned how I'm perceived....No one will ever know the real me on here and I'm sure as hell not going to pretend to be someone I'm not so others can get a clearer perspective of who and what I am....
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
Once again Mike i think your thinking wayyy to much again on my simple reply.Your reply went right over my simple head going on about loads of indepth stuff and all i done was just say i dont work that way and i put it very simple reply with no rant about my vision.A very simple reply it was.I said you have your way,vice versa.Then your next reply you start saying about what i expect and other things.Theres a pattern starting here i think.
 

Mike

Senior Member
Messages
559
Once again Mike i think your thinking wayyy to much again on my simple reply.Your reply went right over my simple head going on about loads of indepth stuff and all i done was just say i dont work that way and i put it very simple reply with no rant about my vision.A very simple reply it was.I said you have your way,vice versa.Then your next reply you start saying about what i expect and other things.Theres a pattern starting here i think.
Ha...yeah....a pattern......Okay Davey, fair enough......
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
Ha...yeah....a pattern......Okay Davey, fair enough......
Hey we agree :welldone i will end this silly thing by jusy saying remember a couple of days ago i said " keep plodding away at the altissimo Mike " and you replyed saying you dont really do it,if its there its there and you have more important things to say on the normal register to which i agree with you 100% as you were just giving your say back to me,thats what i do.Its a simple thing i do when a person says you SHOULD of done this i just say what i really feel and if i dont agree its up to the person to take it as a genuine reply with no mallice involved.
 

Mike

Senior Member
Messages
559
No, I personally read into it differently.....Awhile back, for instance, you took an extreme action of disapproval when it was 'empirically' evident you had a problem with a rhythmic sequence. You even went to the extreme of labeling on your Soundcloud page, precisely the sequence in question (coordinate), that this is where there is exceptional rhythm. I laughed when I saw that. You also questioned the integrity of the listeners at the Cafe thinking it was a 'conspiracy' against you! This has been more or less your pattern even on SOTW when Take Five was an issue. You didn't 'listen' to what those other guys were saying. You had blinders on!
Now if it's a matter of subjection, okay, but objectively a few pointed this out and still you refused
to accept the fact that your rhythm was in issue whether it was in 5/4 or 4/4. On jazz recordings you certainly do have an issue with rhythm. Just my opinion...These smooth jazz type pieces you are more adept at controlling that.


My deficienices are forever on the saxophone and I'm not insecure enough not to clearly point them out. You're entitled to have your say, which goes without saying. Just don't put your head in the sand when it's clearly evident that something is clearly not working. You're only defense is that it's you being an individual. I'm very happy when you get positive results. I'm sincere in that assessment. What bothers me about your attitude is your ego. You can't handle it when there are some who can clearly indicate that there may be an indeficiency.


You mentioned pattern forming....I sure as hope you certainly don't mean jealousy? God, I hope this is not what you're implying!


Rest assured in your own psyche that everything I've mentioned is merely a fabrication of my own thinking process.
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
No, I personally read into it differently.....Awhile back, for instance, you took an extreme action of disapproval when it was 'empirically' evident you had a problem with a rhythmic sequence. You even went to the extreme of labeling on your Soundcloud page, precisely the sequence in question (coordinate), that this is where there is exceptional rhythm. I laughed when I saw that. You also questioned the integrity of the listeners at the Cafe thinking it was a 'conspiracy' against you! This has been more or less your pattern even on SOTW when Take Five was an issue. You didn't 'listen' to what those other guys were saying. You had blinders on!
Now if it's a matter of subjection, okay, but objectively a few pointed this out and still you refused
to accept the fact that your rhythm was in issue whether it was in 5/4 or 4/4. On jazz recordings you certainly do have an issue with rhythm. Just my opinion...These smooth jazz type pieces you are more adept at controlling that.


My deficienices are forever on the saxophone and I'm not insecure enough not to clearly point them out. You're entitled to have your say, which goes without saying. Just don't put your head in the sand when it's clearly evident that something is clearly not working. You're only defense is that it's you being an individual. I'm very happy when you get positive results. I'm sincere in that assessment. What bothers me about your attitude is your ego. You can't handle it when there are some who can clearly indicate that there may be an indeficiency.


You mentioned pattern forming....I sure as hope you certainly don't mean jealousy? God, I hope this is not what you're implying!


Rest assured in your own psyche that everything I've mentioned is merely a fabrication of my own thinking process.
How you make me scratch my simple head yet again Mike.You bring up the the Soundcloud epic tale here.So lets refresh eh !!! you said "Ah, the controversial 2:13 mark.....Hmm....
Between 2:13-2:31 the rhythm isn't very good and it's obviously throwing you off.
I can't really hear it in detail because you're blowing over it, so I counted out the rhythm, as in
conducting it with swings of my hand...(Down-to the Right-swing to the Left-back to Up position)
It's just not a good modulation. It compromised the 4/4. Once that modulation cleared everything fell back into place and you responded as you rhythmically should.


If you could present the track with no sax, then we could estimate the smoking gun.

Dave, you really don't feel you were on rhythm do you? Don't take this personal because it's how we're hearing it.
As I once mentioned we have to keep balance with the good and bad and treat them as equal.

I just replyed saying it felt fine to me etc,i was happy etc.As for soundcloud its called humour i stress,its free of charge.
And whats this about "You also questioned the integrity of the listeners at the Cafe thinking it was a 'conspiracy' against you!
What a load of rubbish there.Show me where i said such a thing please.
Now you say "Now if it's a matter of subjection, okay, but objectively a few pointed this out and still you refused
to accept the fact that your You mentioned pattern forming....I sure as hope you certainly don't mean jealousy? God, I hope this is not what you're implying!

was in issue whether it was in 5/4 or 4/4. On jazz recordings you certainly do have an issue with rhythm. Just my opinion...These smooth jazz type pieces you are more adept at controlling that"
I dont think i have a problem as you call it but like all players i can improve it like EVERY other thing about playing a sax.

And now you go on about my ego !!!!!! yes i have 1.Has every good player got 1,OH YESSSSS.You need 1.

You also say "You mentioned pattern forming....I sure as hope you certainly don't mean jealousy? God, I hope this is not what you're implying! ", they you go thinking to hard again Mike.How on earth do you come up with that ???????? please tell me more on this.

You seem to have covered alot about me there Mike,again !!! As normal i just keep things wayyy more simple and never stretch out my thoughts as you but here goes.Your a great player who seems very uptight for some reason.You over react to things.God help anyone who disagrees with you.Anyone that does have a thing or 2 to reply back on a given subject can then look forward to all the above with very long worded replys....

So like the thread you mentioned i will repeat what i said there and thats something along the lines of i post a clip,a person replys saying i should of done this or that,if i agree i say so,if i dont i will say so !!!!!!!!! again nothing more simple than that.OH BUT then theres you Mike !!!
I'm sure at times you get bored and just love a good old argument.I look ahead to another ear bashing.
PS, Can you tell me what you think of Sonny Rollins rhythm please.Nice to hear your thoughts on his time concept.
 
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Mike

Senior Member
Messages
559
Geez, Davey...I wish you would use quotation brackets!


Okay, you're a human metronome!


As one individual once aptly put it on one of your threads, after he apparently had written something,
but then realized it was futile, he simply wrote.....'No point'
 

daveysaxboy

Big ruff Geordie bendy metal blower
Messages
3,312
Geez, Davey...I wish you would use quotation brackets!


Okay, you're a human metronome!


As one individual once aptly put it on one of your threads, after he apparently had written something,
but then realized it was futile, he simply wrote.....'No point'
Tick Tock is my middle name.The phrase mountain out of a mole hill reminds me of you now Mike.I wont mention the word K*NG but drama Queen springs to mind >:):))):))):)))

WARNING PEOPLE....you have to agree with Mike.You have been warned.Then again it is a DISCUSSION forum:shocked: so be brave and dont agree if thats what you really believe.Sundays are great fun.;}
 
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