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1954pip

Member
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124
hi all
i have looked but unsure the answer very daft question but they always are until you know the answer:w00t: ,am i right small b means flat :welldoneand is the one that looks like this is sharp?#
but what is the other one like this but with a box with two elongated opposite sides.
i have scales and arpeggios for saxophone if you lookpage 14 no. 46 a minor melodic 1 octave :)))
sorry for daft question but then i am daft:mrcool
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
hi all
i have looked but unsure the answer very daft question but they always are until you know the answer:w00t: ,am i right small b means flat :welldoneand is the one that looks like this is sharp?#
but what is the other one like this but with a box with two elongated opposite sides.
i have scales and arpeggios for saxophone if you lookpage 14 no. 46 a minor melodic 1 octave :)))
sorry for daft question but then i am daft:mrcool
Means natural - cancels a preceding sharp or flat - for that note in that bar only!

Exceptions -
when you get a group of naturals at the beginning of a bar that exactly match the key sig at that point, it kills the old key sig and is a new key sig with no flats or sharps i.e you're now in Cmaj or Amin.
Sometimes the writer means cancel all notes with that name in the bar. e.g. you're playing in G, which has F#. Assuming there's a natural sign in front of the F# in the lowest part of the stave, this should only cancel that F# and not the F# on the top line (or anywhere else). But some pieces of music break this rule, and all the F#s in that bar would be played natural.

Some more detail here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music)
 
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1954pip

Member
Messages
124
thanks kev
does that mean i am right about #meaning sharp and b meaning flat,
am i right thinking then that in A minor melodic it would be sharp going up and natural going down the scale
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
thanks kev
does that mean i am right about #meaning sharp and b meaning flat,
am i right thinking then that in A minor melodic it would be sharp going up and natural going down the scale
yes, # is sharp and the funny b is flat.
3 types of minor.
Natural minor is assumed from the key signature (e.g. Am as the relative minor for C major)
Harmonic minor is the Natural minor with a sharp 7th going up and down the scale
Melodic minor is the natural minor with a sharp 7th going up the scale, but a natural 7th going down. (By natural I mean not sharpened compared to the key sig). So A melodic minor is A B C D E F G# A G F E D C B A

Harmonic/melodic don't have proper key sigs, but use accidentals where necessary.
 

BigMartin

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3,904
Melodic minor is the natural minor with a sharp 7th going up the scale, but a natural 7th going down. (By natural I mean not sharpened compared to the key sig). So A melodic minor is A B C D E F G# A G F E D C B A
The melodic minor also has a sharpened sixth on the way up (ie F# in A minor). And for jazz purposes it's more usual (so they tell me) to use the sharpened forms whether going up or down. Another thing to watch out for is that if the sixth or seventh notes start out as flats, they should become naturals not sharps (ie you're still just raising them by a semitone). Eg in C minor, (key sig Bb, Eb, Ab) you go Anatural Bnatural C at the top.
 
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BigMartin

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3,904
Harmonic/melodic don't have proper key sigs, but use accidentals where necessary.
This isn't quite true either, look up relative major/relative minor eg in Pete's Taming the Saxophone theory pages. Hence my remarks about C minor above.
 

1954pip

Member
Messages
124
thanks for that you guys have help me make one more small step towards understanding .
every time i think i am starting to get it there seems when you turn the corner there is loads more waiting for you !!!
i thought i saw the light at the end of the tunnel but it turned turned out to be the postman coming with a torch and another load of music books to learn !
oh well honk honk
pip
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
The melodic minor also has a sharpened sixth on the way up (ie F# in A minor). And for jazz purposes it's more usual (so they tell me) to use the sharpened forms whether going up or down. Another thing to watch out for is that if the sixth or seventh notes start out as flats, they should become naturals not sharps (ie you're still just raising them by a semitone). Eg in C minor, (key sig Bb, Eb, Ab) you go Anatural Bnatural C at the top.
Thanks, I'd misunderstood that - or my memory was playing tricks on me. :blush:
 

BigMartin

Well-Known Member
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3,904
Not with you, can't find the reference, sorry.
Sorry, neither can I. I wrote that without checking. Briefly each major key is associated to a relative minor key, based on the sixth degree of the scale. So the relative minor of C major is A minor and the relative minor of Eb major is C minor. The natural minor has the same notes as the relative major but is based on the 6th note. The key signature for a piece in a minor key is the same as for it's relative major and any altered 6ths and 7ths are put in as accidentals. A google search for relative minor will probably turn up a more lucid explanation.

Cheers

Martin
 

Sunray

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,708
I know how you feel ...

thanks for that you guys have help me make one more small step towards understanding .
every time i think i am starting to get it there seems when you turn the corner there is loads more waiting for you !!!
i thought i saw the light at the end of the tunnel but it turned turned out to be the postman coming with a torch and another load of music books to learn !
oh well honk honk
pip
As "an ole boy" I sure know what you mean mate ...

There seems to be a never ending list of new stuff to learn each time you look a little further ...

Still if it were easy I guess it wouldn't be as much fun ... :w00t:
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
The natural minor has the same notes as the relative major but is based on the 6th note. The key signature for a piece in a minor key is the same as for it's relative major and any altered 6ths and 7ths are put in as accidentals.
That's what I was trying to say, I guess my wording wasn't too good.... :)
 
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