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Accessories New mouthpiece Jumbo Java A55 problem

Overtone

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5
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Croatia
Hello everyone,

First of all sorry for my poor english.

Recently I bought brand new mouthpiece Jumbo Java A55. I having strange squeaks in second octave,especially with notes D,E,.
For years I have been playing on closed classical mouthpieces with strong reeds,and this is the first time I am playing on a open motuhpiece with softer reeds:
Does anyone know what is causing the problem? I have try to loose my embouchure,but its still squeaks sometimes.
I use java reeds(3) and francois louis ligature.

Best regards.
 
The Vandoren JJ is a high baffle mouthpiece and a lot of players switching to this kind of piece would have similar problems, you need to give yourself more time to adjust or try one of the many synthetic reeds on the market.
Once you are more used to the piece it will get easier.
You could also try taking in more mouthpiece and make sure the that the mpc enters the mouth straight and not like you would play a clarinet for instance.
 
Hello everyone,

First of all sorry for my poor english.

Recently I bought brand new mouthpiece Jumbo Java A55. I having strange squeaks in second octave,especially with notes D,E,.
For years I have been playing on closed classical mouthpieces with strong reeds,and this is the first time I am playing on a open motuhpiece with softer reeds:
Does anyone know what is causing the problem? I have try to loose my embouchure,but its still squeaks sometimes.
I use java reeds(3) and francois louis ligature.

Best regards.
Hi Overtone
Just because you play hard reeds on a closed setup, it does not mean that the same approach will give good results on your new setup. To go from something like a C* to the A55 is a huge leap.

The JJ A55 is actually a very open tip for an alto mouthpiece. It's approximately equal to an 8/8* facing (.097" / 2.47mm) and it has a very high baffle. To play a Java #3 on it is really asking for trouble unless you have an embouchure that is really developed for this sort of mouthpiece. It wants to make a HUGE, EDGY sound - ENORMOUS in fact, totally the opposite to your classical setup. Therefore you must develop a different approach to blowing.

The classical embouchure (by which I mean the whole approach to blowing) is entirely in opposition to this mouthpiece, and the probability is that you are trying to approach the A55 in the same way as you would your classical setup. This is not a good idea.

My advice to you, having had many years experience balancing the needs of a classical setup with the needs of a jazz or rock setup, is for you to reduce the strength of your reeds on the A55 (despite what Vandoren say are the the optimum reed strengths for this mouthpiece) to at most a #2.5, maybe even a #2. Also you must relax your embouchure somewhat and slightly lower the mouthpiece-pitch at which you play.

(Does that make sense? What I mean is that the classical player will usually play the sax at quite a high pitch to obtain a clear, clean sound. The throat and larynx raised in the 'E' sound. You should lower this a bit to start with by opening the throat and dropping the back of the tongue.)

Although this may feel very strange, it is only a temporary strangeness. The point of this is to encourage you to use less upward force from the jaw and lower lip, and to 'cradle' the reed and use more air.

Your first results will probably not please you, but take heart and keep practising in this way until you understand what the A55 is capable of doing. You may well come to the realization that a mouthpiece with a smaller tip and less baffle is perfectly capable of producing the sound you are looking for.
 
Close piece hard reed, wide piece soft reed seems to be the accepted wisdom and sqeaks would indicate the reed is too hard.
Reed position is also important. Moving the reed back a little will make it play softer. A little scraping may be in order but dropping to a 2 till your chops develop should have beneficial results.
 
Hi Overtone
Just because you play hard reeds on a closed setup, it does not mean that the same approach will give good results on your new setup. To go from something like a C* to the A55 is a huge leap.

The JJ A55 is actually a very open tip for an alto mouthpiece. It's approximately equal to an 8/8* facing (.097" / 2.47mm) and it has a very high baffle. To play a Java #3 on it is really asking for trouble unless you have an embouchure that is really developed for this sort of mouthpiece. It wants to make a HUGE, EDGY sound - ENORMOUS in fact, totally the opposite to your classical setup. Therefore you must develop a different approach to blowing.

The classical embouchure (by which I mean the whole approach to blowing) is entirely in opposition to this mouthpiece, and the probability is that you are trying to approach the A55 in the same way as you would your classical setup. This is not a good idea.

My advice to you, having had many years experience balancing the needs of a classical setup with the needs of a jazz or rock setup, is for you to reduce the strength of your reeds on the A55 (despite what Vandoren say are the the optimum reed strengths for this mouthpiece) to at most a #2.5, maybe even a #2. Also you must relax your embouchure somewhat and slightly lower the mouthpiece-pitch at which you play.

(Does that make sense? What I mean is that the classical player will usually play the sax at quite a high pitch to obtain a clear, clean sound. The throat and larynx raised in the 'E' sound. You should lower this a bit to start with by opening the throat and dropping the back of the tongue.)

Although this may feel very strange, it is only a temporary strangeness. The point of this is to encourage you to use less upward force from the jaw and lower lip, and to 'cradle' the reed and use more air.

Your first results will probably not please you, but take heart and keep practising in this way until you understand what the A55 is capable of doing. You may well come to the realization that a mouthpiece with a smaller tip and less baffle is perfectly capable of producing the sound you are looking for.

Hello David,
Thank you for answer,I will try to what you said.
Even on JJ A55 wih java #3 I sound "to classical" to myself.I will try with softer reeds and give you feedback,
 
Close piece hard reed, wide piece soft reed seems to be the accepted wisdom and sqeaks would indicate the reed is too hard.
Reed position is also important. Moving the reed back a little will make it play softer. A little scraping may be in order but dropping to a 2 till your chops develop should have beneficial results.
Thanks you for your advice.
 
For a player to go from a classical setup to a Jumbo Java is like going from having Hamsters as a pet to being a lion tamer. The JJ’s really are extreme. I had one years ago. Agree with @David Roach . I might be wrong but I wouldn’t be surprised if the JJ had vastly different side rails to what you’re used to - another possible cause of squeaks.
In any case, it’s going to take a lot of work to tame it and if you are more of a lip over teeth player you’ll possibly always be playing with too much pressure.
 
For a player to go from a classical setup to a Jumbo Java is like going from having Hamsters as a pet to being a lion tamer. The JJ’s really are extreme. I had one years ago. Agree with @David Roach . I might be wrong but I wouldn’t be surprised if the JJ had vastly different side rails to what you’re used to - another possible cause of squeaks.
In any case, it’s going to take a lot of work to tame it and if you are more of a lip over teeth player you’ll possibly always be playing with too much pressure.
@Pete Effamy makes a good point about the placement of your lower lip @Overtone.
One of the ways in which I have navigated the difficulties of switching from close classical setups to more open, edgier ones is by changing the way I use my lower lip.

In a classical situation, when I want to produce a quiet, warm and rounded sound with great purity and precision I will turn my bottom lip inwards somewhat.
To help the transition to a more open or an edgier mouthpiece, or simply to change the nature of my sound, I will turn my lower lip outwards a little, or sometimes a lot. It then becomes necessary for me to engage the muscles all around my lips - top and bottom - to create a circular 'wheel' of muscle.

And here it is, the mechanism that tells you what strength of reed to use. With an out-turned lower lip, if you are using a reed that is to strong, your lip muscles will tire and collapse very quickly - within 30 seconds probably. So reduce your reed strength to a point where you can sustain tone and pitch for longer. This will take time, lots of time and work.

(As a foot note, I would add that not all players will agree entirely with what I said above. You will see if you study the embouchures of good players that some play as I have described and some do not. A good example of a player who turns his lip out a long way a gets spectacular results and a very penetrating tone is Jan Garbarek.
An example of someone who does not turn out much would be Bob Reynolds who is also a wonderful player with quite a different sound to Garbarek).
 
@Pete Effamy makes a good point about the placement of your lower lip @Overtone.
One of the ways in which I have navigated the difficulties of switching from close classical setups to more open, edgier ones is by changing the way I use my lower lip.

In a classical situation, when I want to produce a quiet, warm and rounded sound with great purity and precision I will turn my bottom lip inwards somewhat.
To help the transition to a more open or an edgier mouthpiece, or simply to change the nature of my sound, I will turn my lower lip outwards a little, or sometimes a lot. It then becomes necessary for me to engage the muscles all around my lips - top and bottom - to create a circular 'wheel' of muscle.

And here it is, the mechanism that tells you what strength of reed to use. With an out-turned lower lip, if you are using a reed that is to strong, your lip muscles will tire and collapse very quickly - within 30 seconds probably. So reduce your reed strength to a point where you can sustain tone and pitch for longer. This will take time, lots of time and work.

(As a foot note, I would add that not all players will agree entirely with what I said above. You will see if you study the embouchures of good players that some play as I have described and some do not. A good example of a player who turns his lip out a long way a gets spectacular results and a very penetrating tone is Jan Garbarek.
An example of someone who does not turn out much would be Bob Reynolds who is also a wonderful player with quite a different sound to Garbarek).
Yes I agree, but there is also “middle” ground. The turning out of the lower lip - pout - is often thought of as being very old school. And with some players it’s very obviously turned out. You can play with the lip muscles though without them being particularly turned out. Pull in your lower lip so that it has contact against, but not over your teeth. Sit the reed on your lip , which will need to be pushed up - as David puts it, using a ‘wheel’ of muscle. This is far more free than the clarinet-style jaw-based embouchure.
If higher notes/harmonics require more help the teeth/jaw can be engaged quite easily.
Using this style of embouchure should give a bigger sound as the throat is naturally more open.
 
I use the variants of the lower lip turned out embouchure mentioned above. What I never use is lower lip folded over bottom teeth. I think this is why I can't use hard reeds.
One advantage of the lower lip out method is that there is no danger of biting.
 
Last few days I was playing on Hemkke #2 and JJ55,I do not have any more squeaks but I am still sounding to "classical".I am feeling like I could easily play Ibert's Concertino with this set up. I have to work on applying less force with lower lip.I never though the difference with classical and jazz approach is so big.
 
Last few days I was playing on Hemkke #2 and JJ55,I do not have any more squeaks but I am still sounding to "classical".I am feeling like I could easily play Ibert's Concertino with this set up. I have to work on applying less force with lower lip.I never though the difference with classical and jazz approach is so big.
Think about it the other way - if Dave Sanborn played on a Selmer C* etc you think he’d sound like Marcel Mule or Eugene Rousseau?
 
Most of your sound is you. Mouthpiece lets you be you. It's all about oral cavity and voicing.
 
Last few days I was playing on Hemkke #2 and JJ55,I do not have any more squeaks but I am still sounding to "classical".I am feeling like I could easily play Ibert's Concertino with this set up. I have to work on applying less force with lower lip.I never though the difference with classical and jazz approach is so big.
Yes, it isn't just about the equipment of course! You need to have a sound in your mind's ear: if you don't have an idea of the tone you want, it certainly won't come out of the end of the instrument!
Listen to players you are drawn to and internalise the aspects of their sound that you like and identify with. Then practice making those sounds on the instrument.
 
Yes I agree, but there is also “middle” ground. The turning out of the lower lip - pout - is often thought of as being very old school. And with some players it’s very obviously turned out. You can play with the lip muscles though without them being particularly turned out. Pull in your lower lip so that it has contact against, but not over your teeth. Sit the reed on your lip , which will need to be pushed up - as David puts it, using a ‘wheel’ of muscle. This is far more free than the clarinet-style jaw-based embouchure.
If higher notes/harmonics require more help the teeth/jaw can be engaged quite easily.
Using this style of embouchure should give a bigger sound as the throat is naturally more open.

I've been thinking about this point, and I'd like to clarify that I was not suggesting an exaggerated pout - a pout where the whole embouchure is held away from the teeth. That would indeed be considered very old-fashioned and wouldn't be able to support anything but the softest of reeds on quite a closed-tipped mouthpiece (and produce a very fuzzy tone).

Whether the red part of my lip is turned in slightly, or out slightly or even a lot, the musculature below is always engaged, which does in fact pull the flesh below the lower lip in to the teeth, giving added support to the embouchure.

Whether you can play for long with control is totally dependent upon the strength of your surrounding musculature in relation to the demands of the mouthpiece/reed combination.

Whether I play turned in or turned out technically hardly matters. It really only affects the reed's freedom to vibrate and makes more difference on the bigger reeds like tenor and bari than on soprano & alto.

However, having said all that, the tendency to crush the lower lip against the reed with the teeth - i.e. 'biting' is still quite misunderstood on forums and is only really a problem if the lower lip is weak. I absolutely reserve the right to bite sometimes, especially on soprano. Not only as a valid playing technique but as a physical necessity. Most classical clarinet players - and a lot of classical sax players - could be said to bite to one extent or another. If I'm playing a Nyman gig I definitely do bite on soprano. The difference between one player 'biting' and getting good results and someone else doing it and sounding bad is totally to do with embouchure and throat strength – which can’t be achieved quickly.

What complicates matters for me is that after playing years of soprano sax, my tenor playing tends to become a bit too rigid (I can sort of get away with it on baritone because you can play bari with a very relax embouchure). Tenor can really start to sound too ‘classical’ if you don't have flexibility. Getting to the nitty-gritty, if I don't have flexibility - and therefore it doesn’t sound right - I know I am out of practice and need to do something about it!
 
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