Beginner Sax Need help with an old Orpheus..but know my chances are slim.

[asmpasmp]

Hello,

I am new to the site and would love some help as not sure if I have made a major mistake or not, Just bought a little 46cm tall badged (Orpheus Manufactured in Germany for Suttons Melbourne) Number 2363 anyone have a clue what I have here as been told it could be a Selmer or Keilwerth, I have read on some other threads that they are good horns, This is going to be a fix up unit but I have never seen one like this before and looks like a very old saxophone, hope pics do download and if not please ask for Pics but it looks like an Alto but only 46cm tall.


Regards

John

 

[Nick Wyver]

Your pics didn't download.
There's a brief mention of them on this site here.

46cm sounds like a high pitch alto.

 

[asmpasmp]

Thanks Nick for your reply as I have just download some pictures for you or anyone else

 

[asmpasmp]

Hello Nick,
Seen the post (Doing some research I found that the Orpheus name has been used at least twice, recently on horns associated with Steve Goodson/LA Sax and on some old Italian stencils, which may have come fom Orsi.) The Saxophone I have is a Orpheus made in Germany and at a loss as searched the net for the last two weeks but did not find any thing bar one which was an Italian made Ser No.6936 which mine is 2363 and made in Germany.

 

[kevgermany]

It's a soprano, not an alto.

Guessing it's pre WWII, made in or near to Markneukirchen. Lots of small high quality makers around there, so will need more expert knowledge than I have. Not Keilwerth or Kohlert, they were in Czechoslovakia until a few years after WWII.

You can try comparing pics on bassic sax and saxpics, but sops are rare. You should be able to get close looking at altos and tenors as well. Probably worth an email to Helen, the owner of bassic sax, she has a strong interest in old German saxes. But there's a good chance you won't get a definitive answer.

 

[asmpasmp]

Thanks Kevin, as I have Will check the pictures, I have also just sent Helen some pictures and given her some information about this Saxophone, By some of the Pictures I have seen on http://antiquesaxophones.blogspot.com.au/ it almost looks like a Keilwerth as Keilwerth made Saxophones for Oscar Adler & Co which look close to the same but not 100% and are from Markneukirchen so you seem to know your stuff. But what ever information I get is good, thank you for putting sometime in helping, If it is a Keilwerth can I do a Ser Number check?

 

[asmpasmp]

Information I found out with your help Kev, Just not sure where the Orpheus comes into it if it does.
Oscar Adler & Co
The Firm was grounded in1885 in Markneukirchen by the
Pipemaker Oscar Adler (1862 - 1922).
As a model to be copied Adler used an instrument of the
french (Paris) builder Gautrot, which instrument had been lent out
to him by a Museum in Markneukirchen in 1901 (Now the
Musikinstrumentenmuseum)

This was the first Saxophone to be built in Germany.
For Oscar Adler were busy Julius and Max Keilwerth among others.
Both of these gentlemen made saxophones for Adler in their own
workshop after having built instruments for Kohlert for a few years.
They started for Adler in about 1920 for 5 years.
After that time they started their own workshop.

 

[kevgermany]

There were three Keilwerth brothers. You're missing Richard, but he mostly made Clarinets.

There were a lot of similarities between the German makers, often common parts were used. Try looking at the other German and Cz saxes, then say who made it. Often a maker would just assemble from parts he'd bought in. It really was a cottage industry with a couple of bigger names.

 

[kevgermany]

Orpheus is probably just a name chosen by the reseller in Australia, possibly just the shop. It looks as if it's been added to cover up an engraving underneath. May be worth getting a good tech to take it off and see, it's probably soft soldered on, so will be easy to put back.

If the shop is still there, they may have records, or know who they used to deal with.

Keilwerth serial number lists are easy to Google, but be sure who made it before looking.

 

[asmpasmp]

I have learnt so much from you Kev, thanks as I will admit I was going crazy looking for this sax but you have given me areas to look. thanks

 

[Pete Thomas]

I had something similar once, it was high pitched. Perhaps they used high pitch in Melbourne in those days?

If it is high pitched then it's value is greatly decreased.

 

[asmpasmp]

Hello Pete,
Not sure about yours as this one is not that bad, did you find out anything about it as I`m finding nobody have a clue bar Kev giving me a few ideas.
cheers

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hello Pete,
Not sure about yours as this one is not that bad, did you find out anything about it as I`m finding nobody have a clue bar Kev giving me a few ideas.
cheers

Mine was years ago, all I remember it was a stencil made for some comp-any in Melbourne and it was high pitch..

 

[asmpasmp]

interesting as could be the same one. Do you have any other ideas where I may get some information from like another forum. cheers

 

[Pete Thomas]

interesting as could be the same one. Do you have any other ideas where I may get some information from like another forum. cheers

No, this is the best forum @milandro may have more info.

 

[asmpasmp]

Will give anyone a go ATM. lol
Cheeers

 

[Pete Thomas]

Your problem is that even if it can be proven a stencil of a well known company such as Keilwerth, as a stencil then it's value is very diminished anyway.

I agree with kev, have a look underneath that plate on the front.

 

[asmpasmp]

Starting to think you and Kev are right and may have a go at taking it off. if I do get it off I will contact you

 

[asmpasmp]

Just been looking at the badge and seems like it is a part of the Saxophone and not a Badge after all but tomorrow afternoon i will put a heat gun to it and see where I stand.

 

[kevgermany]

Just been looking at the badge and seems like it is a part of the Saxophone and not a Badge after all but tomorrow afternoon i will put a heat gun to it and see where I stand.

Don't. Unless you know what you're doing the sax will probably fall apart in your hands. And you'll destroy the pads, corks.I can't see from here, but the toneholes might just be soldered on. In any case the keyguards and posts will be soldered on.