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My solo was shot down!

Wade Cornell

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The track you were presented with seem ambiguous. It sounds like a heavy metal influenced band that is trying to play a ballad, but kind of stuck with the inherent inconsistency of these incompatible styles. The feeling changes to heavy rock at the point where you come in, so I hear you lifting it and giving it the energy that was needed to change gear.

The problem is that they go back to the Melba toast sound so your energy is left hanging. In a live situation there would have probably been a musical or intellectual dialogue. Unfortunately what they wanted was something that fitted what I see as rather lame musical construction that imposes conflicting styles in place of tension and release.

It's their show, so I guess they never considered following up your challenge of shifting up rather than back down. Maybe they are one of those bands who can't play with real energy, but just get louder?

All of this is I guess rambling rationalizations from someone who really likes your playing and style. I guess it's one example of what happens when music involves different people where there isn't a real dialogue.
 

Mike

Senior Member
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Yes, without a doubt the operative word here is 'incompatible'. Like any online collab, it was an experiment
and I certainly was not the right catalyst to help bind all the elements together.
The way I see it is, I created the conflict. Sure, they asked but I injected my own musical philosophy to another type of thought process. Conflict was inevitable.

Thanks Wade!
 

MandyH

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OK, so I'll stick my head abovet he parapet and be a voice of difference.
I didn't particularly like it in this setting.
Whatever they were playing before was very regular, had a definite beat and a definite walk through the chords.
When you came in, it reminded me of a Springer Spaniel on speed - absolutely loopy and nigh on irrelevant to what had gone on before.
I struggled to find a beat in your piece, and struggled to pre-empt where you might be going.

If that was your plan, and the word frenetic was usedelsewhere, then you definitely succeeded.

As an easy listening piece (which to me the band seemed to provide before and after you in your snip) then it definitely didn't work.

This is not to say that as a stand alone solo, it might work fine.
 

Gallen

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Only had a few listens, main thing that hit me was how abrupt the sax solo came on with the fast runs. Also, I felt the portion after 1:30-ish, the runs don't fit well there.

I thought the rest of it felt pretty good, if there were a ramp in, I'd say it work work much better, in addition with more spacing in between the runs.

Wish I could do runs like that :thumb:
 

Mike

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In regards to Mandy H and Gallen's posts...

Mandy, you're not alone in your assessment actually. There are a few who agree with you.

Question...
I wonder how others would feel if their fingers were fingering the exact notes I chose. Would they feel different in an actual physical experience and feel the energy I felt as I played through the use of chromatics? I think that's a valid inquiry. Please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not referring my solo as a great solo. It's definitely not!

However, I can only assume that if indeed this exact solo was played by someone else, they would feel differently about their subjectivity. In other words, who should this piece be working for?

Abrupt yes...That was my intention. I didn't have a lot of time but I also didn't want to slowly progress into it either, which is a textbook way of 'building' a solo. Why be textbook? Because it's written that way for all to learn by? And most importantly, which is an anticipated way in the general listening process.
Abrupt appears to be from an old standard of listening in what not to do. Taken by surprise apparently is not a generally anticipated situation so we must ask ourselves why is abrupt synonymous with failure? Please forgive me if I'm assuming you mean abrupt as a negative response. It appeared that's what you were referring to,as in the main essence of the solo.

I appreciate you taking the time to state your opinions! Much thanks!
 
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Taz

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Sorry, it did nothing for me. To my very untrained ear, which I think likes rather predictable tuneful and melodious notes, I found it to have no soul or feeling. Just a jumble of as many random notes as possible squeezed into an environment that they didn't belong.
I know you are a very free blowing soul and I just haven't "got" any of your music. That doesn't read well, it's not just the music that you play, but the whole genre that I don't "get" Does this make me arrow minded? I'm not sure. I've tried, but I fail miserably every time. Maybe the band are like me, a little conventional.
Please don't take this as a personal dig at you, that is certainly not my intention, you asked for opinions and I've given it, I'm sorry I can't be positive (except that I do love your tone;})
 

Mike

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Never apologize in stating your opinion. I always state my opinions unrepentantly and so should you and everyone else! Are you speaking personally, or collectively, in regards to 'in an environment they do not belong'. Without being repentent for my own opinion, this is quite a naive statement. Sure, I can easily respect your opinion based on a personal perception of what you think, but don't go any further than your own perception, which I cannot respect.

A piece of advice....Why in the world would you try to understand a music that is not best suited for
your particular set of ears? Possibly, you're finding some latent intrigue or why would you insist in further listens? By your statement 'failed miserably' you are actually indicating that it's you who are failing and certainly not the music your racking your brain to understand. Failing miserably is either an over dramatic rationale or you're a glutton for punishment......lol
My advice to you is stop torturing yourself and stick to what you do understand. Makes sense, right?

You've managed to take a plethora of non-tradtional types of music and you've neatly placed them in a confined space, as in 'that whole genre'.........Pretty impressive!
 

Pete Thomas

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A piece of advice....Why in the world would you try to understand a music that is not best suited for
your particular set of ears? Possibly, you're finding some latent intrigue or why would you insist in further listens? By your statement 'failed miserably' you are actually indicating that it's you who are failing and certainly not the music your racking your brain to understand. Failing miserably is either an over dramatic rationale or you're a glutton for punishment!

I would have thought it's valid and even admirable to attempt to understand music that you don't (yet) understand.
 

Taz

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Never apologize in stating your opinion. I always state my opinions unrepentantly and so should you and everyone else! Are you speaking personally, or collectively, in regards to 'in an environment they do not belong'. Without being repentent for my own opinion, this is quite a naive statement. Sure, I can easily respect your opinion based on a personal perception of what you think, but don't go any further than your own perception, which I cannot respect.

Well I did start that paragraph with "To my very untrained ear," so I guess I'm speaking personally. It's a rock tune that your trying to fit a jazz solo into. I felt the speed and use of notes that you chose just didn't sound right to me.

A piece of advice....Why in the world would you try to understand a music that is not best suited for your particular set of ears? Possibly, you're finding some latent intrigue or why would you insist in further listens? By your statement 'failed miserably' you are actually indicating that it's you who are failing and certainly not the music your racking your brain to understand. Failing miserably is either an over dramatic rationale or you're a glutton for punishment......lol
My advice to you is stop torturing yourself and stick to what you do understand. Makes sense, right?

How will I ever broaden my horizons if I simply stop "torturing" myself? Should I stop trying different foods because I simply don't like the look of it? No, I think I'll carry on trying it, but in small doses;} I wouldn't want to make myself sick

You've managed to take a plethora of non-tradtional types of music and you've neatly placed them in a confined space, as in 'that whole genre'.........Pretty impressive!

It's difficult to categorise music, so I use the term genre quite loosely. From what I've heard you play a type of contemporary jazz that's very free. As I think I've said before, I admire your ability, I'm just not so keen on the results. At the end of the day, we all have different tastes and expectations otherwise what a boring place this planet would be.

Long live variety.
 

Mike

Senior Member
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540
I would have thought it's valid and even admirable to attempt to understand music that you don't (yet) understand.
Sure it is. But to the extent of torturing or creating stress to one's own psyche if it's not liked? Come on!
Or is semantics an issue here? Torture in the arts is not an admirable trait from my end of the scope. If I don't like something I leave it at that. In that dislike there is no inspiration for me to try and understand what I don't care for. I already understand I don't like it. Why would I want to know the DNA of what it is I don't like?
I'll grow in areas where I can enjoy something, which are endless, and in that enjoyment I won't be impeded by a sadistic need to understand something that simply has no appeal for me.


Taz,
Jazz solo? Because I play a saxophone? Chromatic runs automatically are jazz related? I never got the impression I was playing jazz. If you think so that's okay.
Yes, I respect the fact that you felt it wasn't a proper solo.

Broadening one's horizon's are on thing but you made it sound like like pure drudgery. What am I supposed to think by the words you choose to use to exemplify your attitude? Okay, see now I can understand you better. You're not keen on my work. That's never a problem and it never will be, but when you use the term failed miserably, I can't help but think that's funny. It just means that it didn't turn you on. There's nothing mythical or magical about it. It's cut and dry.
Your ear shouldn't lie to you. There's too much music out there to get bogged down on any one example. Simply move on and in the generalized genre you nonchalantly spoke of, there very well may be something that you do understand, or at least will enjoy trying to figure out what it is you enjoy about it. That's energy well utilized!

Yes, we all have different tastes, which is something I've always advocated, and at times it can be like pulling teeth....

All's cool Taz,
Thanks for your time man!
 

Wade Cornell

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OK, the solo certainly stands way on top of everything else, but I don't think those listening are hearing what the background is doing when Mike comes in. It is also a sudden big change in feeling and becomes very strident. What Mike does fits, in that respect. Listen again and try to imagine it without Mike's solo. Mike merely accentuated what was already happening. The main problem I think is still in the inconsistency of what he was given. It lacks a clear feeling and message using very different styles that are juxtaposed without much reason.
 

Gallen

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....
However, I can only assume that if indeed this exact solo was played by someone else, they would feel differently about their subjectivity. In other words, who should this piece be working for?

This is group work, a collab right? Hence, the piece needs to work for both the audience of this group/band, and on the whole, individual elements of the mix needs to gel together.

Bottom line: Artistic vision in group work - for the better good. Artistic Vision in personal work - knock yourself out and go wild.

ymmv, and this is my personal mantra.
 

Mike

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Thank you for your support Wade. I appreciate it!
I can't speak for the musician's who sent me the track naturally, but I had plenty of reason in what it was I was doing.
However, I certainly understand what you're saying being that none of us were in the same room together.
But from my point of view that doesn't matter. I heard music and I played along with it to interpret it my own way.

Possibly, if I was in the same room with the other musician's, or playing right along with the musician's the outcome may have been different if I played the exact same way, and I'm sure, more or less I would have. That's a situation that has to be considered, but it's truly not important at this stage.
 

Mike

Senior Member
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This is group work, a collab right? Hence, the piece needs to work for both the audience of this group/band, and on the whole, individual elements of the mix needs to gel together.

Bottom line: Artistic vision in group work - for the better good. Artistic Vision in personal work - knock yourself out and go wild.

ymmv, and this is my personal mantra.

Who decides what will work for an audience? How is that done?
 

Rogerb

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Who decides what will work for an audience? How is that done?
This is not, IMO, a 'decision', it is a 'prediction', based an any information you can glean about the audience and their tastes, and the experience within the performance team about how best to give them something which they find enjoyable and stimulating.
(It's market research and product design)

And I'd have thought some 'contingency planning' would be wise in case your predictions are off-target and you need some 'dynamic re-planning' (aka 'Plan B')!!

Where do you think, Mike, that there was a moment when, if you'd done something differently, the outcome for you and the band might have been more satisfactory, for both of you? Was there one, or do you think this project was doomed from the start, by 'incompatibility'? You can't win 'em all....but one can learn for the future, from the ones which get away!

I can't comment on the music ... others are much better-able to to that, and some have done so.

Incidentally, I don't think I have to 'understand' art in order to enjoy it .... it seems to imply analysis, which I think may get in the way of appreciation.
I surely don't understand Mendelsohn any more than I do Messiaen ..... but I do know which gives me pleasure and which does not :thumb:
 
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TomMapfumo

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Urgent call to Mr. Gallen!!!!!! Clear your inbox to receive more pm's!!!!!!!

Look out, there's a Kev about!;}
 

BigMartin

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Incidentally, I don't think I have to 'understand' art in order to enjoy it .... it seems to imply analysis, which I think may get in the way of appreciation.
I surely don't understand Mendelsohn any more than I do Messiaen ..... but I do know which gives me pleasure and which does not :thumb:
You have to understand it in the sense that it has to speak to you. I enjoy Mendelssohn and Messiaen (eg Quartet for the End of Time). But the latter takes more getting into to make yourself familiar with the language he's speaking. It would be all too easy to listen to one Messiaen piece once, think "I don't like this" and give up. I'm glad I didn't.
 

kevgermany

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It would be all too easy to listen to one Messiaen piece once, think "I don't like this" and give up. I'm glad I didn't.

I did. I'm not sure I want to struggle through it. Can you recommend some of his stuff that's accessible?
 

BigMartin

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I did. I'm not sure I want to struggle through it. Can you recommend some of his stuff that's accessible?
Not really. You could just try YouTube and see what comes up. I'm not saying everyone will or should like it, just that I've had quite a few experiences with music where it just seemed random at first, but more listenings have revealed a beauty which I'm glad to have learned to notice. Since I've got more into jazz, Charlie Parker (eg) does a lot more for me than he did a coouple of years ago. Still by no means my favourite player, but I'll keep going back from time to time. But I know not everyone's not like me. My wife (who is generally less into music than me) loved Bartok the first time she heard his violin sonatas. For me, he was an acquired taste, too.
 

Nick Wyver

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I suspect that if you don't find "Quartet For The End Of Time" accessible then you not going to like much of the rest of his stuff. Though, if it's the chamber aspect that doesn't appeal, you could try some of the noisier stuff like Turangalila Symphony or (my fave) Et Exspecto Resurrectionem.

I surely don't understand Mendelsohn any more than I do Messiaen ..... but I do know which gives me pleasure and which does not :thumb:

I know what you mean - I'm not a fan of Mendelssohn either.
 

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