PPT mouthpieces

My new "DIY" pads...

I'm not sure if this was understood...it might have been...but I didn't state it clearly.

From what I can see, it looks like the materials being used for the "pad" surfaces are springy. That means, if the front (really all, but most pronouncedly the front) and the rear of the pad are being compressed differently, they're acting like springs that are "sprung" with different tensions. I kind of suspect that's what's happening with your leak-gaps.

You would *expect* the rear of the pad to have the gap, if there were no "bounce" or "spring" effect happening, since it compresses more than the front, but it kind of sounds like what's happening is that the way the springiness/bounce-related forces are interacting with finger pressure is causing a kind of rebound effect such that extra spring-tension at the rear of the pad is causing a "bounce and set" kind of effect, causing the gap to appear in the opposite side of the pad from where, without any springy force, you would expect to find it.
 
Nope, it's purely the front of the pad tipping up as the key touch is squeezed down from levelled.

The squeeze test isn't done in a playing situation, so there's no opportunity for bounce. It's done in slow motion.
Knock the pad way off level. Slowly close the key to lightly level the pad, then slowly squeeze past levelled and allow the key to slowly rise again.
Gently close again... there's the tiny gap at the front.
 
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OK...so there really need to be sound samples, here. If not of David's horn, then of Codera system and "Resoblades." Unfortunately, there just isn't a lot that I can find in that regard.

I did find this -- I think may be a B&S Codera with Resoblade pads:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqCvgQt8OmM


Only problem for me: because of how he plays I really can't hear much in terms of how the horn plays. He tongues and attacks notes very hard (which obscures attack response, prevents me from getting any sense of it) and doesn't really play with any dynamics in the lower notes -- I'm not sure he plays any low notes (to be honest I jumped around, looking and gave up).

Maybe this is quite relevant: here's Wolf Codera, playing tenor in 2011. He doesn't appear to be playing a Codera....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awETwU1ChTQ

I sort of think the absence of documentation and sound samples over time -- the Codera B&S was available through WWBW.com, I think? -- is a phenomenon in itself that is probably worth noting. There are clips on Youtube of people working on them, but not anybody playing them (other than the one I could find, above -- maybe someone can understand what he's saying and there is something worth translating there?).
 
Hm.... Found this. The info text says the tenor is a B&S Codera. You would have to know them better than me to see by looking whether that appears true. But this horn sounds like it's sealing fine. Core sounds a bit empty, but that could be mouthpiece, recording equipment/mixing, player's concept, any of the above. But at least, if that's a horn with Resoblades, there is one example on line of one being played that sounds like it's probably seating pretty well.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfp1KhyWRQ
 
Codera pads self level and are then fixed in place with a screw, so no squeeze leaks as with a free floating pad.
 
In all honesty, the quicker we can ge, say a thousand sets made, and delivered to interested individuals, the quicker we can comment on the success of the current progress.

Will the initial investment be high? Obviously, but that is the cost of prototyping before product launch. It's absorbed over the lifetime of the advancement.

DYI individuals are hungry for inovation in this particular area. The world is a large place. If DYI'ers could order them easily, that's where the market is.

The Mum's and Dad's don't have time to keep running to the repair shop every few months to get their kids horns regulated. But a few minutes spent with a child and helping them overcome an objection to practising will be the best way to market this idea.

What you people reckon?
 
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Whilst I and others find issues with the single prototype, there's not much point in inflicting the pads on others. If and when it's perfected to my lowly DIY standards it's then down to testing by others who may once again criticise.
I noted Jeff from Music Medic said they'd tested their Neo pads over millions of pad closings on their test rig. I'm just trying to locate my Meccano set to follow suit...

Anyway... another video shortly... can't wait can you... :rolleyes:
 
Although my subconscious brain was telling me to fix the pads once levelled by using threadlock or similar at the metal on metal pivot point, which does work 'cos I tried it, it's a messy solution both in application, faffing time, and especially if you want to remove and replace a pad for, say, fitting of a different size/shape/colour (?) resonator.
You have to get the residue off the magnet inside the key cup before applying fresh threadlock to the pad pivot screw.

So I partially dismantled the alto prototype (lower stack) and fitted one of the PTFE coated magnet bases which arrived the other day. This has a smooth PTFE countersink compared to the rather rough original bare magnet (see pic at Self levelling DIY saxophone pads ). No threadlock here, just free to move pads as before.

Here's the result of the post-PTFE squeeze testing:

View: https://youtu.be/sykOCqVJ7XI
 
Yes: on your F#, "the one on the left," you can see the pad kind of rock back and forth (forward/backward) as you release it after pressing down more firmly. As you already know, now, I think, it freezes after that movement in a way that consistently produces a leak at the front of the pad, because the pad is rocked backward in the cup, with the back end lower (this is why I thought it was probably a result of the pad freezing in place after a bounce -- if it was just caused by the front & back surfaces of the pad releasing from the tonehole, I would expect the pad to end up tipped the opposite way, since probably as the front/back ends release there is more pressure at the back, and the back may even in effect release 2nd).

That's very cool that you solved the seating issue (in a controlled situation). What your F looks like in the "after" is how a pad should look, at the front, closing, and how they look before the "press harder" segment, when both are closing, is how they should look at the front, in tandem.

I understand, playing back to myself, memories of the Codera B&S days, why this idea appeals to non-techs so much. When the Coderas were for sale at WWBW, and I was still playing a Bundy ii, everything about seeking repair was uncomfortable -- cost, trust, need, ability to have needs met, etc. etc. etc.. Even today, I'm teaching myself to reface because it is turning out it's more likely that I can satisfy my own particular mouthpiece needs/wants myself, by learning to reface, than to ever be able to hire somebody to do it.

Saxophone techs don't stress over repair. That kind of leaves the appeal as a question of practicality.

It's really cool you got to this point.

Now your only challenges are:

- sound / response from the player's perspective

- the realities of saxophone repair as they exist now (as far as the commercial viability of the idea) -- internet experts may think that all techs know that toneholes should be level and that in fact they are, because that is a recognized consensus norm and standard in web discussion. Everybody knows a tonehole should be flat and a cup and pad surface should ideally be flat and in perfect adjustment to hit flat against each other. The reality is, for your saxophone's performance, the pad and tonehole surfaces don't have to be perfectly flat; they just have to hit at the same time around the circumference of the tonehole (even if that is not flat, at both surfaces, it will feel like it is so long as the hole pad circle is hitting the whole tonehole at the same time -- and more, the horn will sing the same way). The reality is, rarely when a saxophone comes in for service are all (or sometimes even *any*) of its toneholes level. Techs all know this.

There is a "whataboutism" response open here: "Well this pad will cause techs to have to live up to a higher/correct standard!" A more rational response would be: "Sheisse, and you haven't even mentioned manufacturing differences across models and brands."

I totally get it what a remarkable accomplishment it is for a layperson (non-tech) to do what you've already done here. I get all of it: your brain working on problems whether you like it or not, even in dreams and in between dreams when you wake at night. But none of that is very related to most of the things that are separate from just the technical project you have in your mind.

The questions of practicality are mostly bad news, covered by some of the earlier remarks that I don't believe were at all ill intended (they are just in line with reality).

I do kind of think that a "resoblade" pad solution might be more feasible/practical than it was 20 years ago, because the overall level/mean-standard of repair is higher (as it is in any technical activity) today, thanks to the internet.

I don't see that it's really practical. There is no desire on either side in that, it's just an informed opinion, not very different from those that came before. I do see that you want these questions answered, just perhaps not with the answers that are actually accurate (LOL -- a laugh with, not at).

I didn't want to say this previously, as I did to you privately, but part of the issue is that most players don't like how the horns that have these set-ups in them feel to play (how they "sound" in particular). I think most techs who have been around for 10 or 15 years or more know this. Some players like how Jim Schmidt's pads feel and respond ("some," very different from saying majority, or even "many"). Very few like how they feel and sound, overall, to play, or if they do they eventually go back to preferring leather/conventional again, later. I have been asked a couple of times -- I don't think more than 3 -- in the last 20 years to put Jim Schmidt pads in horns. I cannot remember whether I ever did, but if I did it was over 15 years ago. I have probably worked on or played around 3-5 that had full installations in them, and again that was like 15 or 20 years ago, when his pads had some IRL and internet attention on them. I think everything "new" and "different" had a lot of attention on it around that time, because with the advent of the internet it was neato to be able to become aware of things that one wasn't aware of previously, and probably wouldn't have become aware of previous to the internet's existence.

It's a cool idea, but some of what seems like curmudgeonly resistance is sort of annoyance at the difficulty (on the part of techs) to impart to you all of the stuff that this project brings up, when most of it is unwelcome, despite being completely factually based.

I don't think commercial viability has a lot to do with how cool "resoblades" were 15 or 20 years ago, and it really doesn't today.

But, if you were an artist/player and had the best possible conventional set-up in your horn, versus the best possible "resoblade" (as they have existed in any related form -- thin, rubber/synthetic pads that either are discs or sort of solid rubber), which would you choose? Well, many have already chosen. The numbers tell the story. Techs have already seen that across large "data sets." Again, that does not detract in any way from how cool a project yours is, or that how players have chosen in the past might be different if some changes were to be in place.

As far as commercial viability, though, there are an awful lot of things that have to change.
 
Update...

Since solving the "squeeze leak" issue I immediately stumbled upon another problem. The PTFE coated magnets which solved the problem lost their PTFE coating very quickly, in fact during handling and gluing them in (special PTFE glue in use) during the test I videoed above. I immediately knew I would have to find some elsewhere.

The UK being bereft of magnet manufacturers I embarked on a three month "waste of time" trying to get what I need made in China - the place everyone turns to for everything. There was a pricing thought here too, as prices quoted by the twenty or so Chinese manufacturers are 10% what I'd been paying here.

But it seems the Chinese either want to sell you what THEY want you to have, or sell you something unsuitable and make a one-off killing on shipping, or say they can do something then later say they can't, or confirm they CAN apply the precisely explained thermal deposition of a particular chemical coating then later admit they can't, and instead it's some gumpf sprayed on (no doubt in a garage in a back alley). I even had my very good UK friend, Chairman of a Chinese machine tool manufacturing company, have his staff check out the best contenders, but those firms still haven't come up trumps.
Add into that mix the recent "we all have the new Coronavirus, all are off work sick" type of messages in the last month and it's a total minefield.

What it has allowed me to do is research all the myriad coatings strong magnets can have, get some samples from UK intermediaries, and narrow down the coating choice to a couple, including proper PTFE coating, and to divert my enquiries to the USA where prices are only double the Chinese ones but the US firms are far more forthcoming with ideas and understanding what it is I need.

So I have three samples arriving from the US next week, and a video meeting with another firm also.

Everything else is set and seems to be working well. I have four more "victim" horns waiting for the new pads once I have the right magnet. Then comes bulk magnet supply, pro testing, tech testing (I have a new NAMIR repairer local to me who's very keen on the idea), maybe even a limited passaround here.

More soon later...
 
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Rather than attempting to apply a coating directly to the magnet -is there any room to place the magnet inside a moulded plastic carrier?
 
Rather than attempting to apply a coating directly to the magnet -is there any room to place the magnet inside a moulded plastic carrier?
Yes, or a stainless steel one, however the plastic will tend to drag and add to friction and the SS carries high tooling costs.

There are some very good coatings with up to 500hrs of salt spray testing which give smoothness and low coefficient of friction. Wear is negligible but a consideration also. The underlying neodymium is particularly prone to rusting if not protected fully and being in a moist environment protection from this is also of paramount importance.

As with developing the special recipe for my "self-healing" neoprene seal, when you delve into something which looks so simple a whole new world opens up. I can't develop something half-heartedly. It has to be as perfect as I can make it or it will (and may still) flop.
 
Remember once reading a book on DIY..the title was DONT,
This may apply to the majority, but I have been DIYing since I was a kid and often with some success. So I DONT think you can just reject the concept.

So I would say, DONT believe everything you read. Being printed doesn't make it TRUE. :rolleyes:

Having said that, David, go on.

Only those who try, succeed!
 
This may apply to the majority, but I have been DIYing since I was a kid and often with some success. So I DONT think you can just reject the concept.

So I would say, DONT believe everything you read. Being printed doesn't make it TRUE. :rolleyes:

Having said that, David, go on.

Only those who try, succeed!
English humour.
 
Yes, or a stainless steel one, however the plastic will tend to drag and add to friction and the SS carries high tooling costs.
There are so many different kinds it's hard to generalise: some are pretty low friction and hard wearing thinking of nylon for bearing cups and gears in machinery that I've worked with that do not require lubrication.

You could also grease the magnets but that may cause other problems and would require a degree of maintenance.
 
Grease is out as it might get everywhere. Although the existing mechanism may be oiled or greased I don't want to introduce a messy element, and it might need replenishing as you say.
Dry lubrication is an option but hasn't worked on the original magnets. It may assist on a smoother surface.
I suppose "plastic encapsulation" is too general a description but so far that is as far as manufacturers have gone to describe its make up. My application is perhaps too novel. One offered rubber as a coating which would certainly impede movement between two surfaces.
It'll come, eventually.
 
Scrap the magnets. Research a low strength holding Velcro.
 

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