M/Pieces - Ligs Mouthpiece Size

[Colin the Bear]

@thomsax Plasticover 4 on a 10. Sheesh! With an embouchure like that (insert joke here)

 

[6441]

@thomsax Plasticover 4 on a 10. Sheesh! With an embouchure like that (insert joke here)

Something about doorknobs, I think.

 

[thomsax]

@thomsax Plasticover 4 on a 10. Sheesh! With an embouchure like that (insert joke here)

They don't make plasticover #5 bari reeds anymore so it's #4 tenor and bari reeds on tenor mpc. But on baritone saxophone I'm on LaVoz MH. I don't play Rovner mpc on bari. This is nothing I think so much about. When I play I don't think in words like comfort, easy ..... . If I want easy and comfy things to do, I don't play the saxophone.

 

[Nikki]

I tend to find it quite irresponsible for a teacher to recommend such an extreme tip size. I can understand the want for a screaming piece, but it still needs to be controllable. Tips above 8 are extreme and probably out of reach until you are a very experienced player.

That’s exactly what I’m thinking. If your teacher thinks it’s a great mouthpiece then tell him/her to purchase one and you can try it. I think it’s irresponsible for a teacher to recommend something so outrageous. If you were / are using a size 7 jumping to a size 10 sounds crazy. I would assume it will take your embouchure a while to adjust which I’d think should be done in increments. I’d omit your teachers latest recommendation and take advice from members here instead. I’m catching on also by reading these threads so thanks for the question.

 

[Nikki]

@EddieMichael Hi Eddie. When you say "intonation" are you referring specifically to tuning issues? A 10* is HUGE and I think that's your issue right there. Go smaller! That said...

I had serious problems with a JJ HR* on my Yany AWO10 alto. The MP was pushed so far on the cork with nowhere left to go and still the tuning was off.

I emailed JJ (friendly & helpful) and they confirmed I had the latest model (I sent detailed pictures and measurements). It's a great piece but I can't use it anymore, it required too much work to play in tune.

I agree with posters on the other forum who suggest some sort of database that lists potential incompatibility between specific sax and mouthpiece combos. Maybe one exists!

Thanks for writing this. It’s great to have a brand shiny new mouthpiece but it’s gotta fit the saxophone.

Over the past couple of days I’ve been reading up on mouthpieces and was really surprised to find so many reviewers stating that they’d have to use lots of cork grease since the mouthpiece / saxophone connection is too tight. For me, this just wouldn’t cut it and is unacceptable.

Then there were even more people who had to put paper between their mouthpiece and saxophone. This wouldn’t work for me either.

I want a mouthpiece that’s going to fit my saxophone so I can play in tune AND have enough play room for various backtrack adjustments.

 

[thomsax]

That’s exactly what I’m thinking. If your teacher thinks it’s a great mouthpiece then tell him/her to purchase one and you can try it. I think it’s irresponsible for a teacher to recommend something so outrageous. If you were / are using a size 7 jumping to a size 10 sounds crazy. I would assume it will take your embouchure a while to adjust which I’d think should be done in increments. I’d omit your teachers latest recommendation and take advice from members here instead. I’m catching on also by reading these threads so thanks for the question.

If the teacher says try a #10 the nI think EddieMicheal should try one. But don't buy before you know if it's the right mpc. And to blow a mpc just for some hours is not enough. You have to play more, maybe 15-20 min/day for about a week.

I've been playing 3 brands/manufactor (Dukoff, Berg Larsen, Rovner) with big tip opnings, 0.120"-0.135". The design of the mouthpiece matters as well when it comes to intonation problem. I couldn't play a Dukoff LD 10 (0.135" and a big chamber without baffle). I was sinking. A Dukoff D9 (0.125" with baffle) was better but most of the time I played a Dukoff D8 or X8. It was the same for me when it came to Berg Larsen. I like BL Bullet chamber with M facing The design of a Rovner is differnt compared to Berg Larsen and Dukoff. Rovner have very large windows and and rather long facing. So facing is also a factor. I think DV is also a design with some kind of big window. I'm not so familiar with JJ mpc's.

I have, more or less, intonation problems all mouthpieces and saxes. I hope I can blow my favorite Rovner #10 for some more years. I will be 65 next year and it's a demanding mouthpiece. But I have # 9 and #8 in as well.

I would like to know why all the "No-sayers" don't like big tip openings?

Two Rovner mouthpieces with diffent chamber design. No bullet on the gold one. Both with large windows.

 

[jonf]

I think Thomsax has a point. Everyone's different. Personally I like wide tip openings on tenor, more moderate ones on alto and soprano. For years I played a modified Otto Link 10* with a big baffle, and I currently am playing a D'Addario 9. I don't like struggling with mouthpieces so match an appropriate reed to the mouthpiece, usually a Select Jazz 2m or 2H on the wider openings. I also think that the design of the mouthpiece has a lot to do with it. At one point I had a Francois Louis 0.140 and it was fairly easy for me to blow.

I am constantly surprised by how prescriptive and closed minded people are on music forums, particularly Sax on the Web. Lots of frequent posters saying 'you must play this way' 'you must have this mouthpiece', 'you must play a Selmer sax' and then getting very angry when someone poses an alternative view. We're all different, and whilst there will be a clustering of preferance around mid-sized mouthpieces, the best mouthpiece is the one that's best for you.

 

[Nikki]

If the teacher says try a #10 the nI think EddieMicheal should try one. But don't buy before you know if it's the right mpc. And to blow a mpc just for some hours is not enough. You have to play more, maybe 15-20 min/day for about a week.

I've been playing 3 brands/manufactor (Dukoff, Berg Larsen, Rovner) with big tip opnings, 0.120"-0.135". The design of the mouthpiece matters as well when it comes to intonation problem. I couldn't play a Dukoff LD 10 (0.135" and a big chamber without baffle). I was sinking. A Dukoff D9 (0.125" with baffle) was better but most of the time I played a Dukoff D8 or X8. It was the same for me when it came to Berg Larsen. I like BL Bullet chamber with M facing The design of a Rovner is differnt compared to Berg Larsen and Dukoff. Rovner have very large windows and and rather long facing. So facing is also a factor. I think DV is also a design with some kind of big window. I'm not so familiar with JJ mpc's.

I have, more or less, intonation problems all mouthpieces and saxes. I hope I can blow my favorite Rovner #10 for some more years. I will be 65 next year and it's a demanding mouthpiece. But I have # 9 and #8 in as well.

I would like to know why all the "No-sayers" don't like big tip openings?

Two Rovner mouthpieces with diffent chamber design. No bullet on the gold one. Both with large windows.
View attachment 15022

Those are nice looking mouthpieces. Hey I’m not against a size 10 mouthpiece or any mouthpiece for that matter. I just don’t think it’s a wise idea to jump from a 7 to a size 10 but from what you’re saying, mouthpiece vary in sizing. Like clothes, there isn’t always consistency. Ok!
I can certainly understand that but you have a size 8,9, and 10. Did you pick the size 10 first and then get the size 8 & 9?

 

[Nikki]

I am constantly surprised by how prescriptive and closed minded people are on music forums, particularly Sax on the Web. Lots of frequent posters saying 'you must play this way' 'you must have this mouthpiece', 'you must play a Selmer sax' and then getting very angry when someone poses an alternative view. We're all different, and whilst there will be a clustering of preferance around mid-sized mouthpieces, the best mouthpiece is the one that's best for you.

Ok the O.P. ‘did’ ASK for opinions and stated that he didn’t mind getting that size as long as he has no intonation problems. Some members pointed out that intonation will be off with any new mouthpiece, especially if the size difference is extreme which seems to be the case here.

I do agree with the last part of your post in that that we are all different and the best mouthpiece is the one that’s best for you.

And for the record I’m NOT a sheep who follows the herd and am far from close minded. I never think inside the box. Too claustrophobic. Lol

 

[just saxes]

Thanks for writing this. It’s great to have a brand shiny new mouthpiece but it’s gotta fit the saxophone.

Over the past couple of days I’ve been reading up on mouthpieces and was really surprised to find so many reviewers stating that they’d have to use lots of cork grease since the mouthpiece / saxophone connection is too tight. For me, this just wouldn’t cut it and is unacceptable.

Then there were even more people who had to put paper between their mouthpiece and saxophone. This wouldn’t work for me either.

I want a mouthpiece that’s going to fit my saxophone so I can play in tune AND have enough play room for various backtrack adjustments.

One mild correction: the way you want your cork sized (thickness-wise) is a bit on the large size, at first, if you're using/getting natural cork. You want the tech to work it down so that, at first, it's very snug but not so snug that you can't use it or that you're in danger of damaging your neck or octave key set-up when you're putting the mouthpiece on or taking it off. Part of that is your responsibility (learning to support the neck with your whole hand, without pulling down on the neck while you're putting the mouthpiece on or taking it off), but your tech can help with that.

If your cork is not a bit on the large/thick size when it's first installed, it will quickly crush down and become too loose. It will also be amenable to accomodating more than 1 piece less well. If you have two mouthpieces of very different shank diameters, though, you're just not going to be able to use them on the same cork without some kind of adaptive practice like adding teflon plumber's tape for the larger diameter piece.

What you want to do is have the cork size slightly large for your primary mouthpiece, just slim/thin enough that after being crushed down lightly with a larger diameter piece it is just loose enough for you to rotate the mpc a single direction and to remove it the same way -- with lots of cork grease! -- to remove it. Then, when it's sized properly, and when it's still new, either leave your mouthpiece on the neck a few times overnight, or use another piece with a slightly larger shank diameter and leave that piece on there for up to a week to compress the cork.

The cork can be compressed prior to being installed (say, in a vise), but the above is not only my own normal, for myself, but what customers get unless they request something else.

 

[thomsax]

Did you pick the size 10 first and then get the size 8 & 9?

Yes, #10 was the first Rovner for me. I went to see a friend that was playibg a # 8. After the show we talked about his mouthpiece. I thought he sounded great so I decided to buy one. But the didn't make the bullet "silver" anymore so I found #10 in a musicstore in Chicago. It was a a real challenge to play that mouthpiece. I could just play for 10 min the first months. But the sound was so big and open. Then I ordered the #8 from Rovner in Maryland, USA. It was not playing in the same style. The #9 I bought from a guy in USA that I met here on CS. Last autumn I didn't play for over 2 months. I started to to play again on #8. It just took me 10 days before I was back on #10 again.

I would probaly have less intonation problems if I was playing a Yani #7 but I would miss all the fun and never been able to blow the big and open tones. If the saxophone playing was paying my bills I would play a Yani. But that is not the case so I can allow me to do some extreme honking. I went to see a teacher back in the late 70's. He wanted me to play "Fly Me To the Moon" and that sorts of songs and to play a HR mouthpiece. Nothing wrong with the music or the HR mpc, but it wasn't me.

 

[JayeNM]

If the teacher says try a #10 the nI think EddieMicheal should try one. But don't buy before you know if it's the right mpc. And to blow a mpc just for some hours is not enough. You have to play more, maybe 15-20 min/day for about a week.

I've been playing 3 brands/manufactor (Dukoff, Berg Larsen, Rovner) with big tip opnings, 0.120"-0.135". The design of the mouthpiece matters as well when it comes to intonation problem. I couldn't play a Dukoff LD 10 (0.135" and a big chamber without baffle). I was sinking. A Dukoff D9 (0.125" with baffle) was better but most of the time I played a Dukoff D8 or X8. It was the same for me when it came to Berg Larsen. I like BL Bullet chamber with M facing The design of a Rovner is differnt compared to Berg Larsen and Dukoff. Rovner have very large windows and and rather long facing. So facing is also a factor. I think DV is also a design with some kind of big window. I'm not so familiar with JJ mpc's.

I have, more or less, intonation problems all mouthpieces and saxes. I hope I can blow my favorite Rovner #10 for some more years. I will be 65 next year and it's a demanding mouthpiece. But I have # 9 and #8 in as well.

I would like to know why all the "No-sayers" don't like big tip openings?

Two Rovner mouthpieces with diffent chamber design. No bullet on the gold one. Both with large windows.
View attachment 15022

I am going to respectfully disagree with this...on a few counts:

1) as a seller....it sorta irks me when people buy something which they have no clear intent to keep. Yes, I understand, a counter-argument to this would be 'if there's a return policy, use it of need be"...but...basically I think online buyers these days abuse that privelege. So everything, essentially, in their eyes simply has a free trial period.

2) the answer to the other aspect of your question Thom, has already been stated, so I am not certain why you ask it again (?)

~ OP is playing a tip opening currently of somewhere between a .095-.105.

~ Teacher is rather insistent upon student getting a .130+ tip opening mouthpiece.

~ OP has already noted that he tried another model Jody with an 8* tip and it produces the sort of sound and performance OP was shooting for.

3) You sort of intimate that the 'fin' and 'big, open sound' could NOT be achieved by a 9* or 8*. That is quite subjective. May be the case for you, to your ears, in your experience...but if anyone made that argument as some sort of absolute, it'd be a very specious argument to make.

Given these 3 aspects...WHY bother with the 10* ? Most players (certainly most here, and I would posit the vast majority in general) feel there's no particular need to go for a .030 tip opening jump in this instance.
And beyond need, it'd be a difficult jump to make (especially for a Tenorist of only 1 year).

So I don't see these as being iffy arguments. I think they are very solid arguments. And going back to my 1)....I'd reiterate- why but the 10* ???... if the likelihood is it's gonna bee 'too much to handle" (currently) and get returned ?

 

[Nikki]

One mild correction: the way you want your cork sized (thickness-wise) is a bit on the large size, at first, if you're using/getting natural cork. You want the tech to work it down so that, at first, it's very snug but not so snug that you can't use it or that you're in danger of damaging your neck or octave key set-up when you're putting the mouthpiece on or taking it off. Part of that is your responsibility (learning to support the neck with your whole hand, without pulling down on the neck while you're putting the mouthpiece on or taking it off), but your tech can help with that.

If your cork is not a bit on the large/thick size when it's first installed, it will quickly crush down and become too loose. It will also be amenable to accomodating more than 1 piece less well. If you have two mouthpieces of very different shank diameters, though, you're just not going to be able to use them on the same cork without some kind of adaptive practice like adding teflon plumber's tape for the larger diameter piece.

What you want to do is have the cork size slightly large for your primary mouthpiece, just slim/thin enough that after being crushed down lightly with a larger diameter piece it is just loose enough for you to rotate the mpc a single direction and to remove it the same way -- with lots of cork grease! -- to remove it. Then, when it's sized properly, and when it's still new, either leave your mouthpiece on the neck a few times overnight, or use another piece with a slightly larger shank diameter and leave that piece on there for up to a week to compress the cork.

The cork can be compressed prior to being installed (say, in a vise), but the above is not only my own normal, for myself, but what customers get unless they request something else.

Ok that’s all fine and dandy but what if your other 6 mouthpieces fit perfectly just the way the cork currently is?

 

[JayeNM]

I am constantly surprised by how prescriptive and closed minded people are on music forums, particularly Sax on the Web. Lots of frequent posters saying 'you must play this way' 'you must have this mouthpiece', 'you must play a Selmer sax' and then getting very angry when someone poses an alternative view. We're all different, and whilst there will be a clustering of preferance around mid-sized mouthpieces, the best mouthpiece is the one that's best for you.

This is quite an overreaching comment and intimation to make, IMHO.

a .130 opening is an extremely large opening...very FEW players ever go there, or ever find the need to.

This is not 'close-mindedness' ....nor is anyone here 'insisting' on a player playing a certain piece of hardware so they can/should be 'just like the rest of us' or anything of this sort....

It's simply that given the context the OP has mentioned, most respondents feel (correctly, IMHO) that trying to play a .130 is NOT gonna get the OP what they want...and that a smaller tip and model (but still more open than his current tip opening)...likely will.

I fail to see close mindedness in this (?)

 

[6441]

The only surprising thing about this is that it represents a 30% increase in opening, and that's why it feels excessive. But no one said anything about what someone else should do. I think it's an expression of surprise, more than anything else. I can't even imagine what a 10 would feel like to me, but I'm barely comfortable on my new 6

 

[jonf]

This is quite an overreaching comment and intimation to make, IMHO.

a .130 opening is an extremely large opening...very FEW players ever go there, or ever find the need to.

This is not 'close-mindedness' ....nor is anyone here 'insisting' on a player playing a certain piece of hardware so they can/should be 'just like the rest of us' or anything of this sort....

It's simply that given the context the OP has mentioned, most respondents feel (correctly, IMHO) that trying to play a .130 is NOT gonna get the OP what they want...and that a smaller tip and model (but still more open than his current tip opening)...likely will.

I fail to see close mindedness in this (?)

Hmm, it's not an intimation, it's an opinion.

I have an account on that other forum but I rarely go there now as I got a bit bored with reading things like 'you're using the wrong mouthpiece' and 'your Japanese sax will sound bland'.

 

[thomsax]

@JayeNM @Nikki ...... you are prbably right but ....
.... I don't like when we overreacting when we hear/read about a wide mothpiece opening, hard reeds or saxes from DDR or CZ. To try a mouthpiece with wide opening and baffle is not going to kill you.

To be frank I don't care what mouthpiece, reed or sax ... I just want the player to have fun and to enjoy the music/noise. Most of the players that came to my Rocksax meetings were older/mature. New "ultra cheap" , modern proffesional, old, wide openings, meduim openings, closed openings, without baffels, with baffels, clunky DDR's or CZ saxes .... there is a place for everyone. Rocksax is very much about noise making .... so we don't care so much if we are having pitch or intonation problems.

My Rovner gives me the same feeiling as when John Fogerty (one of my heroes) heard Booker T and the MG's playing "Time Is Tight" in San Fransico: " The way that organ spun around that big coliseum was magical to me. In the middle of "Time Is Tight" they hit the bridge, and God! " My crime is I like wide mouthpiece openings with baffles. On the other side I guess that say when I goes to Jam: There is the stubborn old man with with his big Rovner and old Martin sax. Keep On Honking!!!

 

[Nikki]

@JayeNM @Nikki ...... you are prbably right but ....
.... I don't like when we overreacting when we hear/read about a wide mothpiece opening, hard reeds or saxes from DDR or CZ. To try a mouthpiece with wide opening and baffle is not going to kill you.

To be frank I don't care what mouthpiece, reed or sax ... I just want the player to have fun and to enjoy the music/noise. Most of the players that came to my Rocksax meetings were older/mature. New "ultra cheap" , modern proffesional, old, wide openings, meduim openings, closed openings, without baffels, with baffels, clunky DDR's or CZ saxes .... there is a place for everyone. Rocksax is very much about noise making .... so we don't care so much if we are having pitch or intonation problems.

My Rovner gives me the same feeiling as when John Fogerty (one of my heroes) heard Booker T and the MG's playing "Time Is Tight" in San Fransico: " The way that organ spun around that big coliseum was magical to me. In the middle of "Time Is Tight" they hit the bridge, and God! " My crime is I like wide mouthpiece openings with baffles. On the other side I guess that say when I goes to Jam: There is the stubborn old man with with his big Rovner and old Martin sax. Keep On Honking!!!

Well duh. Of course it’s not going to kill you. No need to jump to the overly dramatic either.
The OP clearly stated that he didn’t want to be dealing with intonation problems. With a size difference that big, he most certainly will. Most members understood that part. The thread isn’t about your preference and what ‘you’ can handle. Rocksax might very well be about making noise and doesn’t care in the least about intonation which is perfectly fine for ‘you,’ but not the guy who started the thread and asked the question.

 

[thomsax]

Well duh. Of course it’s not going to kill you. No need to jump to the overly dramatic either.
The OP clearly stated that he didn’t want to be dealing with intonation problems. With a size difference that big, he most certainly will. Most members understood that part. The thread isn’t about your preference and what ‘you’ can handle. Rocksax might very well be about making noise and doesn’t care in the least about intonation which is perfectly fine for ‘you,’ but not the guy who started the thread and asked the question.

I just don't want anytone to judge a teacher, a player ..... because they prefer wide tip opnings. I can't say if he is a bad teacher .... I don't know him. But I don't like comments like .... " I think it’s irresponsible for a teacher to recommend something so outrageous".

I'm not a good player but I'm not complete "tone deaf". I'm a little bit like Florence Foster Jenkins. And I would probably spend my last money on a Rocksax project. For my own joy but also for others amusement. And I'm still searching for Rovner with extreme wide tipe openings. There are some Rovner Deep-V D40 #12 (0.150") out there, but they are rare.

Love & Peace

Thomas

 

[6441]

These things tend to spin out of control in a spiral. Bottom line, no one cares what anyone else plays or likes, unless you're selling the stuff.

Was their a question? (Size matters?) Was it answered? (With several reactions.)
That's what's most important here IMO. The post interesting part would have been trying the 10 and reporting the results. I guess it's the 8 we'll be hearing about.