Mouthpieces mouthpiece question - 5c vs factory

[cityartisan]

Hi,
Just purchased a Yamaha 5c mouthpiece as an upgrade for my beginner alto sax. It seems by looking at the two in comparison it's almost identical to the factory mouthpiece. I haven't taken any measurements on the factory model so there probably is a difference in .000 inches or mm. I can't help thinking I made a mistake in buying the 5c and maybe the better sound lies in the reed or otherwise? I should point out I've only used the factory reeds so far and so no name or any info on these. I'm planning on getting some decent reeds if I can tomorrow and so will compare the two that way. As far as playing goes, I haven't noticed as much difference as expected but once again, it could be the reed. If so, I would just assume send the 5c back for a refund. Any suggestions? Thanks

 

[Colin the Bear]

Keep the Yamaha mouthpiece.
Use the Yamaha mouthpiece.
There's a reason why other manufacturers make lookalikes.

Yamaha kit is precision made from quality materials after much research and with a proven track record of success.

 

[mizmar]

looking at the two in comparison it's almost identical to the factory mouthpiece.

At beginner level, you won't see the difference.
First; I, at least, can't tell the difference between a 4C, 5C or 6C by eye - apart from the writing.
Second; the real difference is in the table, rails and tip. Places where the reed needs to lie flat and / or seal. Again, hard to see by eye. Also flaws here can show up inconsistently across reeds... In my limited experience.

The Yamaha, as Colin said, is most likely to be good and not throw up problems that - at least the beginner - c6an distinguished between the kit and the player.

 

[DavidUK]

As has been said, keep the Yamaha.

It takes one more thing out of the equation as to "what's going wrong" when you're starting out.

As for reeds, you need to try many makes, cuts, strengths to find the one that suits you and once again a Yamaha MP gives you a background consistency.

What reeds are you going to buy?

 

[cityartisan]

As has been said, keep the Yamaha.

It takes one more thing out of the equation as to "what's going wrong" when you're starting out.

As for reeds, you need to try many makes, cuts, strengths to find the one that suits you and once again a Yamaha MP gives you a background consistency.

What reeds are you going to buy?

For starters(reeds), I'd to try the Rico 1.5 or 2.0 if available, hopefully the local music store can recommend something. It seems anything they sell would be better than what I'm currently using. I'll bring one of my factory reeds and ask them about it.

 

[turf3]

So much, so much information not provided.

Is "the factory mouthpiece" not a Yamaha, but rather what came in the case of a non-Yamaha sax? Why did you think you needed a different MP?

Have you actually tried the two mouthpieces back to back (same reed)? What did you experience?

You can't tell diddly about the accuracy of manufacture of a mouthpiece by looking at it. That particular internal design and exterior shape is common as dirt. People make mouthpieces that look like that and range from the dreadful to the fantastic. You gotta get the surface plate, feeler gauges, facing gauge, and plot out facings and baffle contours to see some of the possible differences.

If the "factory mouthpiece" seems to work as well as the Yamaha one, keep it. If not, use the Yamaha one. What led you to make this purchase in the first place?

 

[cityartisan]

Have you actually tried the two mouthpieces back to back (same reed)? What did you experience?

Yes, I didn't notice much difference, but as said before, the reed was probably inferior to a name brand. I'm in the market for a better reed to try it again,

 

[cityartisan]

What led you to make this purchase in the first place?

From recommendations and info I got on this forum and others.

 

[cityartisan]

For starters(reeds), I'd to try the Rico 1.5 or 2.0 if available, hopefully the local music store can recommend something. It seems anything they sell would be better than what I'm currently using. I'll bring one of my factory reeds and ask them about it.

Music store is closed today. Bummer!

 

[turf3]

Well, the Yamaha 5C is under $50 so I'd just keep it, you know it'll be well made. You'll not have to second-guess whether something wrong with the mouthpiece is causing any problems you may be having.

Get some Rico 2s and start practicing. They're not great reeds but they're probably better than mystery reeds that came in the box of what sounds like an ultra-budget horn (to put it as nicely as I can).

 

[ghostler]

If the 1st mouthpiece is truly the default supplied by Yamaha with their new saxes, it would be understandable that it would follow close to their best "recommended beginner" mouthpiece(s) IMO, or possibly be "the same" without designation markings (to save production costs)?

Because everyone's embouchure is different, what works for one may not result in the same satisfaction for others.

And, selection of reed plays a large part in playing satisfaction.

I prefer not getting "into the weeds" about exacting dimensions but use a manufacturer's description of tip to reed gap, general chamber size and shape when making my selection.

(This is because I've lived in small cities a couple hour drive from major cities for over 30 years. They have a music store or two with very limited selection. While in Alamogordo, NM 15 years ago, they only had one music store in a very small store with only one inexpensive beginner no name tenor sax mouthpiece.

Those who live near a major music dealer in a large city may have better opportunity to try out various "demonstrator" mouthpieces before buying.)

Price is not always an indicator to quality/satisfaction, and I had more or less good luck with the humbler inexpensive Rico Graftonites. Everyone has their own method of selection, but due to their lower cost, could be an alternative by selecting a rough equivalent prior to splurging on that "pro" mouthpiece.

Just saying .... YMMV - your mileage may vary.

 

[Pete Thomas]

the reed was probably inferior to a name brand. I'm in the market for a better reed to try it again,

It sounds like you don't know whether that reed was actually inferior. The only way to know is to play it as opposed to making assumptions, because there are plenty of lesser known brands that are good.

 

[turf3]

If the 1st mouthpiece is truly the default supplied by Yamaha with their new saxes,...

From textual evidence I infer that OP's sax is not a Yamaha but one of those ultra-low-cost ones that come with the white cotton gloves. I think the 5C probably IS the default supplied by Yamaha; but OP has a no-name mouthpiece he calls "the factory mouthpiece" and some no-name reeds he calls "the factory reeds".

 

[ghostler]

@cityartisan , what is the alto sax that you are using?

Regarding if you have a budget sax, recently I bought for only $206 US shipping and tax included, a Cecelio Mendini Eb alto sax in black nickel, apparently a demonstrator sax by an Amazon major seller of this instrument brand. (@turf3 , its factory mouthpiece is more like a Selmer, tapered on the cork end.)

(I took a stab at it as it wasn't in black lacquer like many budget saxes. The black nickel costs additional, sax was at about half the price of the clear lacquered one. If plays well enough after I test it, intend to donate to an entry level mid-school student whose parents have difficulty affording.)

I also have an older Selmer Bundy II "beginner" alto and an older Antigua Winds pro alto.

In this community, we have people playing all sorts of brands and models. It is basically what one can afford.

 

[Pete Effamy]

From textual evidence I infer that OP's sax is not a Yamaha but one of those ultra-low-cost ones that come with the white cotton gloves. I think the 5C probably IS the default supplied by Yamaha; but OP has a no-name mouthpiece he calls "the factory mouthpiece" and some no-name reeds he calls "the factory reeds".

They’re probably the inferior white gloves too. There are better ones, but in most shops you might get a slap for trying

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’m not up to date, but the cheaper “in the box” unbranded pieces were definitely inferior to a 4C or 5C.
As for this particular one, you have to be certain that any anomalies - squeaks or whistles / bad intonation - always occur on that one mouthpiece, which requires your embouchure to be consistent.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It seems by looking at the two in comparison it's almost identical to the factory mouthpiece.

It could be identical or just a copy. I have found some very good unbranded 4c lookalikes, I wondered whether they may not be copies but unbranded actual 4C. Not sure if Yamaha would do that or not.

EDIT: Im not 100% sure but it doesn't look identical re: dimensions. A small difference may or may not make a big difference in sound or response. It could actually be better.

I can't help thinking I made a mistake in buying the 5c and maybe the better sound lies in the reed or otherwise?

No, the mouthpiece can be very important if your unbranded on is inferior. I am not going to call it factory, because a Yamaha mouthpiece comes from a factory also.

If so, I would just assume send the 5c back for a refund. Any suggestions?

No, I'd find out for sure if it's the mouthpiece that's the issue. You may need an unbiased expert, pro or teacher to help. I say unbiased because some people are just anti China.

It seems anything they sell would be better than what I'm currently using.

I don't see why.

I'll bring one of my factory reeds and ask them about it.

I can guarantee they will say it is rubbish in order to sell you something.

NB: you've marked your own posts as solution. It's possible but I would wait and see for sure.

 

[wakyct]

Any suggestions? Thanks

Maybe I missed it mentioned in the thread but I don't think some basic things have been mentioned yet:

First off, using the MP and reed that came with your sax check if the reed seals against the MP -- https://bettersax.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/10-Essential-Reed-Setup-Tips.pdf under 'Suction test'

Speaking as a beginner myself, when you're first starting out there are many variables aside from the MP itself -- embouchure, reed position on the MP, your technique like how you're pressing the keys and when, your air support, your voicing, and probably none of them are consistent from day to day.

IMO you have to take an empirical approach to figuring out what a problem might be and you can't make that judgement based on one practice session. Check that the reed is sealing well on the MP. Observe what you're doing over multiple practice sessions, hopefully you can practice at least a little bit every day.

The first week I bought my horn one and a half years ago I bought a new (to me) MP, a used Selmer S80 because someone recommended it to me (I had virtually zero knowledge of MPs). I remember taking it home in excitement over how much better I was going to sound compared to the plastic MP that came with the horn, a Goldentone (that I had been playing for a few days). Guess what? I heard NO difference 😀.

 

[turf3]

No, I'd find out for sure if it's the mouthpiece that's the issue. You may need an unbiased expert, pro or teacher to help. I say unbiased because some people are just anti China.

I personally admit I'm biased AGAINST mystery no-name mouthpieces that came in the box of an ultra-cheap horn, and I am biased FOR the general quality and serviceability of the Yamaha student mouthpiece for a beginner.

For $50 the OP has a Yamaha student mouthpiece that he can pretty much be certain is correctly made and will not cause him any issues. It'd cost way more than $50 to obtain the necessary measuring tools to even assess the mystery one, or it'd cost way more than $50 to pay a mouthpiece expert to do the measurements.

I vote to keep the inexpensive high quality Yamaha mouthpiece, set the mystery one aside, and move on to learning how to play the horn.

I readily admit I am also biased AGAINST no-name mystery reeds, and biased FOR reeds made by a company that actually puts their name on the thing. Again, I vote for the #2 or #2.5 Rico reed for the beginner.

Now if for some reason an experienced professional saxophonist found himself in possession of a mystery no-name mouthpiece and some mystery no-name reeds, he might well find that they work just fine. OP does not have the skill to even tell whether the quality of the mystery no-name equipment is causing issues, or if it's his own undeveloped playing skill. If you start out with a Yamah 5C student mouthpiece and a box of #2 Rico reeds, you can be pretty certain that defects in either one will not be the cause of difficulties in learning - at a beginner level - how to play the horn.

 

[turf3]

And just one more point: while it wouldn't be my first (or even fifth) choice, I would certaintly be comfortable to play most any professional gig on a Yamaha 5C mouthpiece with Rico #2 reeds. (I'd probably have to clip those reeds as they're too soft for me.)