Mouthpiece Bore Sizes & Suitable Hand Reamers

[rhysonsax]

I know that there is a lot of variability in the diameter of the bore of saxophone mouthpieces. Different mouthpiece makers seem to have used different sizes and I think some are cylindrical (same bore diameter all the way) and others may taper slightly.

A well fitted and greased neck cork should allow the sax to be played with mouthpieces with a range of bore sizes, but there are also mouthpieces that are too big or too small to fit or reach the proper position for tuning.

I know that there is no agreed "standard" for bore size but what are "typical" diameters for soprano, alto, tenor and baritone mouthpieces ?

Where the mouthpiece is made of ebonite and the bore is too small, it should be fairly easy to increase the bore with careful use of a hand reamer (you wouldn't want to damage the throat or chamber areas). Does anyone know of a good source of suitable reamers that would be available in the correct sizes (and should they be tapered) ?

Rhys

 

[turf3]

1) MSC Supply. If you buy their "import" adjustable blade reamer it will have to be disassembled and reworked as the workmanship is awful. If you buy the Cleveland brand adjustable blade reamer it will cost a lot more but will work out of the box.

2) The bore of the mouthpiece needs to be cylindrical, NEVER tapered. I know a lot of hard rubber and plastic piece come with the bore not reamed, but that's laziness and cheapness, not a viable design choice.

3) Be careful not to ding up the baffle/transition out of the bore with the end of the reamer.

4) Fixed size hand reamers may be problematic as you can't sneak up on the desired size. You may end up trying to take so much depth of cut that you get terrible chatter, or you simply won't be able to turn the reamer. You can't chuck the mouthpiece in the vise of a Bridgeport and run the reamer in at the slowest speed; you'll be doing it all by hand. I'd use an adjustable blade reamer. (Or, maybe you have a Bridgeport in the basement, in which case you probably don't need me to tell you how to do this.)

5) For sizing I use a telescoping gauge and micrometer to measure the bore of the one I want to replicate (whatever fits the loosest on my neck cork)

 

[rhysonsax]

Thanks @turf3

Is it this sort of thing ? https://www.mscdirect.co.uk/RQS-38552L/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html

It looks like the adjustable ones have quite a length beyond the cutting blades, where the thread and adjustment nut sit. Doesn't that mean that there is a long part that isn't cutting but liable to do damage in the throat and chamber area ?

Rhys

 

[turf3]

That's the thing.

If you watch what you're doing, you'll have no trouble avoiding damage to the other parts of the MP. I have done this several times. If you don't watch, you'll end up with an ugly mark on the baffle. I have done this once or twice, too. But the length of the reamed area, at least on the ones I've done, is more than enough for the purpose.

 

[LostCircuits]

I know that there is a lot of variability in the diameter of the bore of saxophone mouthpieces. Different mouthpiece makers seem to have used different sizes and I think some are cylindrical (same bore diameter all the way) and others may taper slightly.

A well fitted and greased neck cork should allow the sax to be played with mouthpieces with a range of bore sizes, but there are also mouthpieces that are too big or too small to fit or reach the proper position for tuning.

I know that there is no agreed "standard" for bore size but what are "typical" diameters for soprano, alto, tenor and baritone mouthpieces ?

Where the mouthpiece is made of ebonite and the bore is too small, it should be fairly easy to increase the bore with careful use of a hand reamer (you wouldn't want to damage the throat or chamber areas). Does anyone know of a good source of suitable reamers that would be available in the correct sizes (and should they be tapered) ?

Rhys

11/16 bari, 43/64 for tenor, 5/8 alto, 17/32 soprano and they should all be cylindrical. I have "opened up" pieces using a drill press and hand-holding the MPC, not really the best way but I'd prefer it over a hand reamer.

 

[rhysonsax]

11/16 bari, 43/64 for tenor, 5/8 alto, 17/32 soprano and they should all be cylindrical. I have "opened up" pieces using a drill press and hand-holding the MPC, not really the best way but I'd prefer it over a hand reamer.

Thanks @LostCircuits - that's very interesting and helpful. Can you say why you prefer to use a drill press rather than hand reamers ?

And if @Phil sees this thread I would be interested in whether and how he machines mouthpiece bores and to what diameter.

Rhys

 

[LostCircuits]

Thanks @LostCircuits - that's very interesting and helpful. Can you say why you prefer to use a drill press rather than hand reamers ?

And if @Phil sees this thread I would be interested in whether and how he machines mouthpiece bores and to what diameter.

Rhys

Rhys, really simple answer, because I have done it like that and it turned out to be very easy and it took less than 30 seconds. I was kind of scared of the MPC jamming on the drill bit but it was a non-issue. And I was still wearing leather work gloves, just in case. If you add a bit of canola oil or similar to the work piece or the drill bit, it will work easier. But in general, you are removing a very small amount of material.

- Don't try it with your most valuable piece until you know that it'll work for you
- Move your hand(s) up instead of lowering your drill press
- Go slow!

I was actually surprised by how easy it went but use a standard HSS drill with an angled tip and not some fancy wood drill with a pilot tip.

 

[rhysonsax]

Rhys, really simple answer, because I have done it like that and it turned out to be very easy and it took less than 30 seconds. I was kind of scared of the MPC jamming on the drill bit but it was a non-issue. And I was still wearing leather work gloves, just in case. If you add a bit of canola oil or similar to the work piece or the drill bit, it will work easier. But in general, you are removing a very small amount of material.

• Don't try it with your most valuable piece until you know that it'll work for you
• Move your hand(s) up instead of lowering your drill press
• Go slow!

I was actually surprised by how easy it went but use a standard HSS drill with an angled tip and not some fancy wood drill with a pilot tip.

Sounds fairly straightforward, but I don't (yet) have a drill press, nor do I have a lathe. As the drill doesn't move in this method, I suppose I could just clamp my drill in a vice and then use push the mouthpiece on by hand.

Rhys

 

[turf3]

Rhys, really simple answer, because I have done it like that and it turned out to be very easy and it took less than 30 seconds. I was kind of scared of the MPC jamming on the drill bit but it was a non-issue. And I was still wearing leather work gloves, just in case. If you add a bit of canola oil or similar to the work piece or the drill bit, it will work easier. But in general, you are removing a very small amount of material.

• Don't try it with your most valuable piece until you know that it'll work for you
• Move your hand(s) up instead of lowering your drill press
• Go slow!

I was actually surprised by how easy it went but use a standard HSS drill with an angled tip and not some fancy wood drill with a pilot tip.

1) NEVER wear gloves for this kind of work! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!!

2) In my experience using drill presses sooner or later that bit is going to catch in the MP and you will not be happy. The workpiece really needs to be held one way or another. Unfortunately a mouthpiece doesn't have good holding features. What might work well is a Rovner ligature, then clamp that so the bars of the Rovner will hold against rotation.

 

[LostCircuits]

I can only say it was surprisingly easy doing it this way. I had the same caveat but I proved myself wrong. Of course, I would never attempt anything like this with a metal MPC.

If you have a lathe with a headstock, you can use painter's masking tape to protect the MPC and clamp it in the chuck while avoiding the table. If you have a drill bit, reamer, mandrel that fits the diameter of the bore, you can use that for accurate centering of the piece and then switch over to the bit you are targeting.
You can also use tape for adjusting the diameter of the "pilot" bit or mandrel.

 

[Stephen Howard]

1) NEVER wear gloves for this kind of work! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!!

2) In my experience using drill presses sooner or later that bit is going to catch in the MP and you will not be happy. The workpiece really needs to be held one way or another. Unfortunately a mouthpiece doesn't have good holding features. What might work well is a Rovner ligature, then clamp that so the bars of the Rovner will hold against rotation.

Ayes - drills and gloves, asking for trouble.

As for mouthpiece holding features....well - every piece has a table, which is (hopefully) a nice, flat surface.
The way I bore out pieces is to clamp them down to a riser on the cross-slide of the lathe, using a mandrel in the chuck for centring and shims to get the angle of the bore true - and then use a boring head in the spindle.
Bit of a faff to set it all up though, and I don't do enough of them to warrant buying/making a jig.

 

[Colin the Bear]

With a HR mouthpiece and a small cut I can't see why any machinery is needed. It should all be possible with hand tools.
I agree that gloves near a powered spinning drill bit is asking to become a harmonica player. Ouch!

 

[LostCircuits]

Sounds fairly straightforward, but I don't (yet) have a drill press, nor do I have a lathe. As the drill doesn't move in this method, I suppose I could just clamp my drill in a vice and then use push the mouthpiece on by hand.

Rhys

I am kind of scared by that thought because there is really no good way to secure the drill (not the bit) in the vice and hold the switch while pushing the MPC onto it. That's just too many variables and I am almost certain you would catch on the MPC and ruin it.

As for the gloves I mentioned earlier, I am with Turf3 that under no circumstances you should wear rubber gloves, or latex or anything like that. That's an invitation for losing fingers.

 

[turf3]

You know, if you're going to try the twist drill (not a bad idea at all), I think I'd put a ligature on the MP, wrap that in some sheet rubber, clamp it in a vise. Then chuck the twist drill in a BRACE! Then use the brace to rotate the twist drill as you feed it into the workpiece. Much more control than using an electric drill but the offset of the brace gives you enough leverage. NO electricity at all required.

 

[rhysonsax]

A couple of other sources of information on bores.

This thread on SOTW includes data from Mojobari (US mouthpiece tech) for 41 tenor mouthpieces for which he had measured the bores (all measurements in inches):
N 41
Mean 0.6684
StDev 0.0083
Median 0.669
Min 0.648
Max 0.687
Range 0.039
6*StDev 0.050

And I also remembered Wyman's interesting 1972 dissertation on alto mouthpieces, comparing the sound, intonation and power of various different mouthpiece designs. For the study all the mouthpieces were given identical facing curves (as far as you can do that).

Wyman wrote that "the mouthpiece bores were all reamed to the same size so that they would all fit easily on the corked end of the neck. The old Martin mouthpiece (A) was originally manufactured with a purely cylindrical bore of 5/8 inch diameter ( .6250") . Other mouthpieces, particularly older models, had smaller bores. Many of them had a slight taper in the bore (becoming smaller towards the chamber end). Because of the convenience of obtaining a reamer to make a 5/8 inch cylindrical bore, this was selected as the bore for all mouthpieces. If a mouthpiece had a taper which became smaller than that size, then the reaming was done only as far as needed for the correct placement of the mouthpiece on the neck cork. The Type A mouthpieces were reamed all the way to the bore end. All of the reaming was done using a 5/8 high-speed steel drill, the mouthpiece being turned by hand over the stationary bit."

Rhys

 

[rhysonsax]

Eventually I paid £10 for a Heller 17.5mm HSS drill bit for use on baritone mouthpieces.

I have a nice Dolnet mouthpiece in ebonite (it seems to be the same design as used by Buffet Crampon and some other French makers). The bore is just a little bit small compared with most bari pieces - I measured it at 17.0mm.

I thought that just 0.5mm on diameter would be quite easy to remove using the drill by hand, but it only went in about 1cm and then jammed fast. I can't twist it either forwards or backwards.

Any bright ideas for how to get it out ?

Rhys

 

[Targa]

Eventually I paid £10 for a Heller 17.5mm HSS drill bit for use on baritone mouthpieces.

I have a nice Dolnet mouthpiece in ebonite (it seems to be the same design as used by Buffet Crampon and some other French makers). The bore is just a little bit small compared with most bari pieces - I measured it at 17.0mm.

I thought that just 0.5mm on diameter would be quite easy to remove using the drill by hand, but it only went in about 1cm and then jammed fast. I can't twist it either forwards or backwards.

View attachment 20026


Any bright ideas for how to get it out ?

Rhys

A couple of self grip wrenches with plenty of padding on the mp or you could try putting in the fridge for a while guessing the bit will contract more than the mp.

 

[jbtsax]

Any bright ideas for how to get it out ?

Rhys

You might try clamping the bit in a vise and carefully "rocking" the mouthpiece back and forth as you pull.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I thought that just 0.5mm on diameter would be quite easy to remove using the drill by hand, but it only went in about 1cm and then jammed fast. I can't twist it either forwards or backwards.


Any bright ideas for how to get it out ?

Rhys

Oooh, rookie mistake there!

When you drive a drill bit in by hand you run the risk that the there won't be enough torque/speed to ensure the tip of the drill actually cuts the material...and then the drill turns into a sort of giant screw. It happens a lot when drilling brass - even under power, which is why it's common the slightly dull the cutting edges to prevent the drill from 'grabbing' and threading itself into the job.

I'd go with JBT's suggestion of clamping the drill bit and rocking the piece.
Failing that you can try heating the bit. This will slightly soften the ebonite and might allow you to reverse the bit out.

 

[rhysonsax]

Oooh, rookie mistake there!

When you drive a drill bit in by hand you run the risk that the there won't be enough torque/speed to ensure the tip of the drill actually cuts the material...and then the drill turns into a sort of giant screw. It happens a lot when drilling brass - even under power, which is why it's common the slightly dull the cutting edges to prevent the drill from 'grabbing' and threading itself into the job.

I'd go with JBT's suggestion of clamping the drill bit and rocking the piece.
Failing that you can try heating the bit. This will slightly soften the ebonite and might allow you to reverse the bit out.

With the drill bit held in a vice I got enough purchase to twist the mouthpiece off.

I have since been trying to use that setup to remove more material but although quite a lot has been removed the drill only wants to go about one inch into the bore. I have been backing it out and cleaning off the ebonite pieces but think this is not the way to go so may leave it alone now.

Thanks for the help.

Rhys (a rookie)