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Beginner modes again

jeremyjuicewah

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Still trying to get this right. Does the following hold true:

Tenor key is Bm. So, relative major is D, mixolydian related to D major is A. Notes are A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G

Going to go home and try it later, but would appreciate any comment.

Best wishes
Mike
 

jeremyjuicewah

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Doh, what I really meant to ask is will mixolydian based on A fit over Bminor? It looks like it fits?
Mike
 

jeremyjuicewah

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I cannot figure out which note the correct mixolydian scale would start on if the song is in a minor key. Is it the 5th of the major, or the relative major, or the minor, in which case which minor scale? I havent found a satisfactory answer anywhere on the web, not one I can comprehend, so specifically, for a song in B minor, which note should the appropriate mixolydian scale begin on?
Thanks
Mike
 

ArtyLady

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I cannot figure out which note the correct mixolydian scale would start on if the song is in a minor key. Is it the 5th of the major, or the relative major, or the minor, in which case which minor scale? I havent found a satisfactory answer anywhere on the web, not one I can comprehend, so specifically, for a song in B minor, which note should the appropriate mixolydian scale begin on?
Thanks
Mike
If you're looking for a scale to improvise on I would go for a B Dorian, or a lick based on the B Dorian with chord extensions ie 9th, 11th, 13th. I really don't think a Mixolydian will work as you have conflicting minor and major 3rd. hth ?
 

jeremyjuicewah

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Ok, think I have found it. Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian have a minor "flavour-2. Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian, major.
I will play around with that tonight. Thanks for the response madam Arty.
Mike
 

Jazzaferri

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The notes in B minor scale aka Aeolian mode of D major are the same notes as in all the modes of D major. The difference is the tonal centre. You can play any of the notes of the d major scale over a b minor chord but some will be more out of the box than others.

For an auditory exercise that will help in understanding this. If you have some way to generate a B minor chord and sustain over a couple of bars or have it repeat every beat, generate a concert A minor chord and play each of the modes of D major over it from the first note of the mode up to the octave. Some will sound quite consonant and some quite dissonant and yet it is the same group of notes

Keep in mind that scales are the alphabet of music and not music. As has been said by many, learn all the scales chords and stuff and then once you have learned them well promptly forget all that and play music.
 
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ArtyLady

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......

Keep in mind that scales are the alphabet of music and not music. As has been said by many, learn all the scales chords and stuff and then once you have learned them well promptly forget all that and play music.
I totally agree :thumb:
 

visionari1

Senior Member
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Keep in mind that scales are the alphabet of music and not music. As has been said by many, learn all the scales chords and stuff and then once you have learned them well promptly forget all that and play music.

There lies the whole rub of my universe.. I've been going down this road literally for years with seemingly little progress




Cheers & ciao
Jimu

"Together We Create Beauty"
 
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ArtyLady

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There lies the whole rub of my universe.. I've been going down this road literally for years with seemingly little progress




Cheers & ciao
Jimu

"Together We Create Beauty"
Do you transcribe solos? I find that the best way to discover where players are coming from - you can usually find various modal scales underlying their licks :thumb:
 

aldevis

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The notes in B minor scale aka Aeolian mode of D major are the same notes as in all the modes of D major. The difference is the tonal centre. You can play any of the notes of the d major scale over a b minor chord but some will be more out of the box than others.
Spot on!
I have the strange feeling that nowadays there is too much focus on scales...
Please note that C major and D dorian are completely different scales that incidentally have the same notes.

I know that it is a lot of work, but the OP says Bm.
It means B, D, F#.
Everything else are just more or less good sounding passing notes. On one hand this means you have to re-think the rank of notes in a scale (i.e. in C major, F is the last note you want to play), on the other hand it gives you more flexibility, in particular when you are on dominant chords.

Scales are a good shortcut, but if you listen to So What on Kind of blue, you will hear how many time an imaginary A7 chord occurs on the D dorian section (concert).
 

jeremyjuicewah

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Thanks for very interesting replies. I like to know scales because I can locate myself. Thing is that tomorrow is the long awaited live debut comes off and I am doing my last minute boning up and trying to make one number in particualar a little more interesting.

ARTYLADY. You say to try a B dorian over B minor key. Shouldnt that be C dorian, or have I got it wrong again.

Best wishes
Mike.
PS I will let you know how it goes. If it goes ok I will even post a video.
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
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12,125
Thanks for very interesting replies. I like to know scales because I can locate myself. Thing is that tomorrow is the long awaited live debut comes off and I am doing my last minute boning up and trying to make one number in particualar a little more interesting.
TOMORROW!
B blues then: BDEFF#AB, but don't indulge on the F natural.

ARTYLADY. You say to try a B dorian over B minor key. Shouldnt that be C dorian, or have I got it wrong again.
You have it wrong (it is the scale theory's fault). B dorian is the scale with the notes of the A major scale starting from B.
The difference with a natural minor is the G#.
 

ArtyLady

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1,030
Thanks for very interesting replies. I like to know scales because I can locate myself. Thing is that tomorrow is the long awaited live debut comes off and I am doing my last minute boning up and trying to make one number in particualar a little more interesting.

ARTYLADY. You say to try a B dorian over B minor key. Shouldnt that be C dorian, or have I got it wrong again.

Best wishes
Mike.
PS I will let you know how it goes. If it goes ok I will even post a video.
Yes B Dorian (has the same sharps as A Major if that helps) and if it's a minor blues then just use B Blues scale and/or B Minor Pentatonic will work over the whole thing! What tune is it out of curiosity?
 

Jazzaferri

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2,663
The key signature is one thing but what drives the note choice is the harmony within the song. If you are playing a modal piece then B Dorian would probably sound pretty cool.

If there are chord progressions then they need to be taken into consideration. Some songs will change key or tonal centre frequently.even though the key signature stays the same. Accidentals in the melody are signs in that forest. Not guarantees mind, just signs. Some songs will work in staying completely in the key signature box and just being careful to land on chord tones at the changes

I will say it again lol a scale or mode is just a bag of notes to choose from that have a higher chance of being more "inside" the not. A chord tone is definitely inside the box as are leading tones if not dwelled upon t length.

Two notes

C Dorian is the second mode of the Bb major scale.

A mode is not a diferent scale, it is a mode of it's parent scale.
 
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jeremyjuicewah

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Hi. The choon is Easy Babe (Malted MilK). Dont know the original key, we play in some odd keys to accomodate the singer, who cant sing anyway in any key but is a nice guy and organises stuff. The problem is not so much with Malted Milk as that after half a dozen blues type things I begin to crave to escape the minor pentotonic. It sounds good, but as a player, I can have too much of a good thing. I have had a lesson this afternoon and I have been very confused about modes but basically now I think I have it. The only mode you can use an alternative, as you might for example play a relative major over a minor, is the Dorian mode. That I knew, but I didnt know it as the Dorian mode, I just knew that you can drop a whole tone from a minor and play the major scale. Taking the mixolydian and other modes, I have decided to forget it all. I learned in improv that over a D7 chord you can harmonise over it with the major scale, four up. Eg. over D7 I would harmonise with G major. That, methinks, is of more use to me than knowing its the mixolydian mode. This gives me cause to wonder at a thread I read very recently on here about a saxman who was taking music lessons from an older guy, ex pro, trumpet player, who told him modes are nonsense and jazz musicians have been playing without knowing about them forever. I can see his point now. You dont need to know they are modes, just where to go to harmonise. Given that I usually get things wrong, I will probably modify this opinion over time, but I think there is truth there.

Thanks to all,
Best wishes
Mike
 

ArtyLady

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I don't know the song, but if you want nice simple lick to put in over a D7 go for B,C,E,G,B,D sounds really nice. Hope that helps a bit, :thumb:
 

visionari1

Senior Member
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1,581
Do you transcribe solos? I find that the best way to discover where players are coming from - you can usually find various modal scales underlying their licks :thumb:
Hi Arty Lady,

Well, by transcribing , do you mean actually writing down a solo?....I don't do this however I copy the phrase, or tune by ear, sometimes I write the notes into the Transcribe Programme, I really don't have much awareness of the scales, maybe this is where I'm missing the boat. Even when I arppegiate or put a scale in the right place it sounds boring as hell.
I have also been learning riffs and some pentatonic Maj & min patterns, and trying to play these in all keys.

As was stated earlier...getting to the point where you then ignore them and just play is quite a process
 

Jazzaferri

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2,663
Something that Sir Isaac Stern said is well worth reflecting on. "music isn't found in the notes....music is found in the spaces between the notes".

I would rather hear one note played with exquisite tone at absolutely the right time and the right place than 100 notes that tell me you are technically very proficient.
 
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