Melody Notes Dont Match Chords

[Tommohawk]

Hi all..... hoping for some insight.

I'm retired now and have more time to spend on the sax, but with advancing years have become remarkably dim, and my memory is terrible. I can't remember any pieces, and I dont have much music theory - my reading is OK but not great. I'm thinking the only way I'm ever going to be able to play anything is by developing my improvisation skills, and just getting as many chords in the muscle memory bank as possible.

But I struggle to make sense of this. For example, currently I'm looking at Barefoot Sunday Blues by Cannonball Adderley. Nice little tune, simple pattern, only 3 chords. But the melody doesnt seem to fit the chord notes. For example, bar 2 (discounting the lead in bar) is G7 (for alto) but has an F#. However G7 has F natural. Bar 4 is D7, but has an F natural. Whereas D7 has F#.

Similarly Bar 8 has a C#., but is in D7 so C should be natural. I get that there may be some use of "other" notes, or chromaticism type thing, but so much of the melody seems like this its hard to make sense of it.

Am I missing something. Well.... obviously I am, but what??

Sorry for what is likely a daft question!

 

[rhysonsax]

What is the source for your melody and chords ? It's a nice Cannonball tune that is new to me.

I found this transcription for alto, written with 1# in the key signature, although it is a D blues (in alto pitch).

View: https://youtu.be/3J3OqrGZ10Q?si=0bT6U1QHPzHsUlLl


You can see that the chords in the transcription are more "Jazz Blues" that your basic 3 chord version, with various 2-5 chords added in compared with the stripped back, down home, chords I have seen for the head in other sources.

Bar 2 could be a D7 (alto key) rather than using the G7 (IV 7 for the key). The F natural in bar 4 is a b3 of D, and that is a "blues note".

In your bar 8 (i.e. ignoring the lead in) this transcription shows the chords as Fm7b5 and B7 (a ii-V7 leading to the Em7 in bar 9) so the C# fits over that B7.

Good luck

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

There are many reasons for non-chord notes such as passing notes, extensions (suspensions) altered notes, enclosures, and wrong notes.

 

[skeller047]

Melody and Harmony - 2 legs of the 3-legged stool that is music. The third leg, Rhythm, is implied in your question, because the melody and harmony don’t do the same things at the same time.

The thing is, if melodic direction lands at the same place that harmonic direction does, but they take different routes, it will still sound good. In addition, for a blues, there is the added attraction of blue notes and blues licks.

In the example that @rhysonsax posted, the melody at bars 9 & 10 clearly imply a V - IV turnaround, but the chord symbols say a ii-V turnaround, with a iii-VI lead in. Both these approaches get you back to I, so no harm no foul. But they don’t match.

Many people think about chords vertically - what notes are in a chord, what scale(s) fit over it, that kind of thing. It’s important to know that stuff, but chords don’t exist in isolation. It’s the way they fit together that counts; what key(s) they imply, whether they add tension or resolve it, etc.

The point is that harmony has movement and direction. So does melody. Sometimes they are in lockstep, but in jazz especially, they often diverge and intertwine.

 

[Pete Thomas]

For example, bar 2 (discounting the lead in bar) is G7 (for alto) but has an F#.

I was going to reply that F# on a G7 is fine as part of the so-called "bebop scale" where it's an off beat passing note G to F#(Gb) to F. But that only works as part of an actual scale. But now seeing the transcription I'd say it's a what some might say is a wrong note (either in the playing or the transcription).

By that,I'm not saying it does sound wrong in the context as it could depend on the piano voicing or spacing.

But it's something an educator would say is not advisable. Sometimes you can get away with that kind of thing, but usually only if you are very experienced and it's a more pattern based than "correct harmony" style. ie an otherwise "wrong note is ok if there's a first sequential pattern sequence.

But I don't see that happening here either, it's an exposed on beat note and purely looking at it then "wrong note seems like the best explanation I can give.

 

[mizmar]

my memory is terrible. I can't remember any pieces

Just as an aside.
I've always had a bad memory, since as a kid.
None the less, remembering tunes is a learned skill. Maybe it's easy (to acquire the skill and do) as a kid, but us old, late starters, new to musicing, can acquire the skill through - like everything in music - practice. Bonus; most tunes in The Song Book aren't that hard. They're songs, after all.
Added bonus; I suspect most improvisors have a head full of vaguely remembered music that they lean on, even without realising it, more than theory.

10 mins a day learning a tune by heart is time well spent.

 

[Tommohawk]

Thanks for all that!
Rhys - youre right, my version is the stripped back version and presumably has approximations and simplifications. The version you've posted seems likely more "accurate" in some bars.
Pete - thanks for that. So its clearly acceptable that some notes may be just plain "wrong" but work just fine. And blue notes as you say doubtless fit in some cases.
skeller047 - okay, so the melody sometimes diverges from the harmony.

From a practical perspective, some of the passages in this piece are too fast for me to simply sight read/play. I'm still very much a learner, where you guys are Pros.
So what I'd like to do is improvise over those fast passages, playing mostly eighths/quavers rather than sixteenths. What I try and do is work with the notes in the written solo, but only play half of them - if that makes sense!

But if truly improvising, how do you know which notes work? Lets say the piece is unknown to you, to what extent can you look at the written chord and know which chord/other notes work?

 

[Tommohawk]

Mizmar - I'm sure youre right - I've heard this before, but somehow it doesnt seem to work for me! I guess I'll try and stick with it.
To be clear, in most cases I can remember the tune OK in my head, I just cant remember the notes! If I could get to the point where hearing the note in my head would tell me what note to play "by ear" as it were, that would work fine. I've started doing a bit more just playing along to stuff by ear to help with this.

But I guess that does pose an interesting distinction. When playing from memory, to what extent do most folk just recall the note names/positions on the instrument, or it actually more about hearing the note and just knowing what fingering makes that note. Does that make sense?

 

[Pete Thomas]

to what extent can you look at the written chord and know which chord/other notes work?

To quite a great extent depending on the context and how quick you are at getting out of a tight spot. If you hear you are playing a wrong note you either quickly play a semitone either way which inevitably by the laws of average is a “right” note. Or else you just give the bass player a dirty look.

 

[mizmar]

I can remember the tune OK in my head, I just cant remember the notes!

Fair enough. I don't think many people can though. There are some folks here who can listen to something and know the key or go "yeah, your high D is flat" or something...
Mostly one plays successive notes by interval. Finding the first note phrase and launching from there... And all those scale and arpeggio exercise take over without you realising, telling your fingers where to go... Also, practicing transcribing helps. 10 mins a day....

 

[skeller047]

But if truly improvising, how do you know which notes work? Lets say the piece is unknown to you, to what extent can you look at the written chord and know which chord/other notes work?

The point I was trying to make is I don’t just look at a single chord. I look at the chord progression, and think things like “OK, a 2-5-1 in D, then a 2-5 to G”. Then I make a melody in the key of D that says the same thing that the harmony does. It’s simpler, because I am just thinking melodically in a key, and more complicated because I know about chord progressions.

Just like when sight reading, where you have to look ahead of what you are playing, for improvising you have to know where the chord progression is headed.

For jazz, especially in tunes that have many chords (1 or 2 per bar), understanding functional harmony is way more important than memorizing which scales go with which chord. You DO have to know what notes are in each chord, and you have to know about diatonic chords (the chords in a key), but there are really only a few different chord types, and learning this stuff in all 12 keys is no more difficult than playing a major scale in all 12 keys.

Pete’s introductory stuff on improvisation here in the Tutorials section is excellent. IMPRO/THEORY - Taming The Saxophone
Spend a few minutes studying this and try to apply some of it in your practice, you will figure it out.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Lots of numbers appear to have the accompaniment in a different key to the melody. I can't think of one off hand.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Now I see this is not the actual sheet music but someone’s transcription I can confidently say (without listening) that the issue is with the chord symbol being wrong, not Cannonbsll playing a wrong note. The mere fact they got the key signature wrong is enough to signal to me what the issue is.

 

[Tommohawk]

The point I was trying to make is I don’t just look at a single chord. I look at the chord progression, and think things like “OK, a 2-5-1 in D, then a 2-5 to G”. Then I make a melody in the key of D that says the same thing that the harmony does. It’s simpler, because I am just thinking melodically in a key, and more complicated because I know about chord progressions.

Just like when sight reading, where you have to look ahead of what you are playing, for improvising you have to know where the chord progression is headed.

For jazz, especially in tunes that have many chords (1 or 2 per bar), understanding functional harmony is way more important than memorizing which scales go with which chord. You DO have to know what notes are in each chord, and you have to know about diatonic chords (the chords in a key), but there are really only a few different chord types, and learning this stuff in all 12 keys is no more difficult than playing a major scale in all 12 keys.

Thanks thats helpful. At my standard I'm never going to to attempt a piece sight unseen, so working out the structure eg 2-5-1 etc has to be the way to go. And as you say reading ahead is the way to go, whether its notes and phrases, or chords and structure.
Since having a bit more time on my hands, I've been practicing more methodically but mostly on technique and tone, and not so much on music structure. I need to find a way of combining both.
Your comment on diatonic chords is helpful.... I don't think I'd ever really grasped the significance of this.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Chords = Arpeggios.

 

[Tommohawk]

Now I see this is not the actual sheet music but someone’s transcription I can confidently say (without listening) that the issue is with the chord symbol being wrong, not Cannonbsll playing a wrong note. The mere fact they got the key signature wrong is enough to signal to me what the issue is.

As it happens the version I have is in D (alto) which I think is likely correct, although the chords are probably (over)simplified.
Funny thing I always sort of thought the key signature was to a great extent a matter of convenience, ie using the key signature which required the fewest accidentals. so the piece we're looking at could be scored in g or d and both could be correct.
However given the earlier comment on diatonic chords, though it might be possible to score the notes "correctly" in the wrong key, the implied diatonic chords would be wrong.
Am I close/distant/miles off?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Or overthinking it?

 

[Tommohawk]

Or overthinking it?

LOL, yeah my wife says that a lot.

 

[rhysonsax]

Chords = Arpeggios.

Arpeggios = Broken Chords

Rhys

 

[mizmar]

key signature was to a great extent a matter of convenience

Yeah, I used to think that. Turns out they key signatures are very important. Composers and arrangers use things like D♭, F# or G♭ to show how mucho they are and to intimidate lesser musicians. So, very important.