Martin handcraft key query

[gladsaxisme]

while I have been inspecting this handcraft sax I have come across a small key on the lower side of the sax just above the joint with the bow that doesn't appear to do anything and also appears to have no operable linkage to another key, the key is permanently closed by its spring and although there is a link to it from another key it cannot operate it as although it sits below its tail it fails to touch it when operating the other key and can only serve to try and close it more if it did touch it,can any of you techs explain what it's all about.
Also on the lower stack if all the pads tend to touch first at the back of the pad does this mean that the posts are likely to be out of line and need trueing up by tapping away from the tone holes to level the pads or is it best to leave well alone and level with the keys and pads.
Any info much appreciated......John

 

[Nick Wyver]

Sounds like an alt Eb key. They've been disabled on a lot of old saxes but if it's working it should open when you finger a bottom D and raise your rh middle finger. It gives you a fork fingering for Eb.
I'd refer your second problem to a tech but it does sound like the posts have been bashed sometime.

 

[kevgermany]

Also on the lower stack if all the pads tend to touch first at the back of the pad does this mean that the posts are likely to be out of line

Can be, may also mean the pads are too thick/badly installed.

 

[gladsaxisme]

Thanks guys I figured it must be an alternative key for something and the linkage does come off the low E key but the way it's set up it can't in fact do anything so maybe it has been disabled in some way, the way it is now if it did work it would be trying to close it more rather than open it.

Just had a light bulb moment if you spring it the other way so it keeps it open rather than shut maybe the linkage will come into play, might not be a good thing though I suppose.....thanks ......john

 

[altissimo]

from Stephen Howard's review of the Martin Handcraft - http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Martin_Handcraft_alto.htm
"The Handcraft features that old standby of early vintage horns, the low Eb trill key. This works off a lever over the low E key cup and a link from the low D cup to the E cup. By pressing the F and the D keys down an Eb is sounded - and D is sounded by bringing down the E key lever, which closes a small cup round the back of the horn.
Sounds handy - but in practice the mechanism tends to wear and go out of regulation fairly quickly, and it's just another place for a leak to develop.
Most people tend to wedge the little Eb key cup closed - though a neater fix is to reverse the throw of the key's spring"

 

[gladsaxisme]

from Stephen Howard's review of the Martin Handcraft - http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Martin_Handcraft_alto.htm
"The Handcraft features that old standby of early vintage horns, the low Eb trill key. This works off a lever over the low E key cup and a link from the low D cup to the E cup. By pressing the F and the D keys down an Eb is sounded - and D is sounded by bringing down the E key lever, which closes a small cup round the back of the horn.
Sounds handy - but in practice the mechanism tends to wear and go out of regulation fairly quickly, and it's just another place for a leak to develop.
Most people tend to wedge the little Eb key cup closed - though a neater fix is to reverse the throw of the key's spring"

And that is what had probably been done i.e. reverse the spring,i might try to bring the action back but doubt if it might be a good idea if SH says that about it....john

 

[altissimo]

reversing the springs or wedging them shut is common on Eb trill keys, if it seals well, leave it alone and concentrate on the other problem. As Kev has suggested, it may be to do with the pads being too thick - http://www.todayaq.com/saxophone-market/models-02605.html
or the bell could have had a bash and been knocked out of alignment

 

[jbtsax]

I try to make that key operable on the vintage saxes I restore---especially Conns. I find that the key helps to vent the F natural and closing it changes the timbre of that note slightly, if not the intonation as well. With the advent of teflon tube, tech cork, and synthetic felt it has become much easier to make that key work more reliably than in the past. I never cease to be amazed at how well the early techs could make things work with the materials they had to work with at the time.

 

[gladsaxisme]

I try to make that key operable on the vintage saxes I restore---especially Conns. I find that the key helps to vent the F natural and closing it changes the timbre of that note slightly, if not the intonation as well. With the advent of teflon tube, tech cork, and synthetic felt it has become much easier to make that key work more reliably than in the past. I never cease to be amazed at how well the early techs could make things work with the materials they had to work with at the time.

Thanks John
Have you any thoughts on the other problem, I just thought it was odd that they all touched first at the back,I have been working on the bow and bell keys and have been surprised how far out from level they all are, I thought that with them being such robust tone holes they would tend to stay level better but it appears not

John

 

[gladsaxisme]

reversing the springs or wedging them shut is common on Eb trill keys, if it seals well, leave it alone and concentrate on the other problem. As Kev has suggested, it may be to do with the pads being too thick - http://www.todayaq.com/saxophone-market/models-02605.html
or the bell could have had a bash and been knocked out of alignment

They don't look particularly thick most are just flat pads with no resonaters or at least just the centre pin,there is the odd one that has been replaced at some time that has the brown plastic res in and they are all very old and need replacing,the play in the mechanics on all the tubes and rods is enormous so it looks like I'm going to have to invest in some swedging pliers and hope I can take it out, I'm not sure how much you can do with them or if there's a limit,
I wonder what pads and thickness of them would be recommended, it's all good fun

John

 

[thomsax]

I think .160" (4mm), or slighty thinner, is best for Martin saxes. I looked at my Imperial -34 and Indiana saxes and the pads in these saxes are almost in-line with the rim of the keycups. Is the same with Martin Comm saxes. The keyheights are low on my Martins. And the factory set-up was low as well.

 

[jbtsax]

I agree with Thomsax on the thickness. It is not uncommon for vintage saxes to have old pads that are what I call "spongy" and close first in back. Assuming it was padded correctly to begin with the old pads may have swelled over time in a humid climate. I am fond of the Music Medic pads, but you can probably find some of equal quality closer to where you live. Good luck with your project. It is always a good idea to have a local tech for "back up" if you get in over your head.