Saxophones Martin Committee Skyline.

mpjbiker

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Hi all, a young friend of mine has just bought the above horn-just been repadded, in good condition. He's struggling with the tuning and intonation, in particular, the high C#, which is massively sharp. So sharp, it's showing D on the tuner. He accepts that as a clarinet player he needs to loosen his embouchure, and we corrected a lot of tuning issues by pulling the mouthpiece off a good way. I reckon it's better to be in tune in the top octave and slightly flat in the bottom octave, than cringingly sharp in the top octave. I've tried it-nice horn, love the heart shaped thumbrest, lovely action and great sound, but the C# is deffo out. It was bought from a well respected restorer and dealer, and we know it'll need to be set up once the pads have bedded in. He's a good guy, and has said that he will happily change it for something else if it doesn't suit, but it's really close to being a great horn. Anyone else experienced the same issue? Sounds like some sort of regulation or set up issue? Cheers!
 
Is it just the C# or is it the higher part of the upper register, specially with sharpness starting at the A note where the neck octave kicks in? And is it the same playing the upper register with no octave key? This would point to a mouthpiece mismatch.

I knew someone who had a sonar issue with a Martin Indiana. Cure? A Selmer Soloist.
 
High C# is a sharp note. This issue is why some modern instruments, especially sopranos, have dual left hand stack keys. Or use that donut dual-pad design for the stack key. The size of the stack key tone hole is reduced when the octave key is pressed. This mainly affects C#.

There are two solutions. One, get your friend to work one voicing. It’s not enough to just “loosen the embouchure”, it’s more an attitude toward where and how to place the air. I think pulling out for the lower register to be flat is a bad idea.

Put the mouthpiece where the horn is in tune with itself, when overblown low B (first overtone) is exactly the same as B on the midline of the staff. Then learn to play in tune with the mouthpiece at that point.

Second, for high C# (above the staff), I often on older horns need to add the first two fingers of my right hand. Experiment with 1, 2 or 3 fingers of the right hand to find which one gives the best results, but I have used the 2 finger version on multiple horns. This is only used on long-ish notes; in fast passages it goes by fast enough to be unnoticeable. Usually…
 
Thanks for all replies-mouth piece should be fine, standard meyer. Yes, adding right hand fingers pulls it down a bit. He'll blow it for a few weeks and let everything bed in and settle down, then take it back to be tweaked and adjusted. I suspect the more he plays it, the more he'll subconsciously adjust!
 
I think a Martin Committe sax should have thin pads (4,0mm/.160" or thinner ) and low key heights. Small or medium chamber mouthpieces works best for me.

Blow the Ciss 3 and the try to press down the C key a little bit, a mm .. , and check if the Ciss 3 will play more in tune. The B was sharp on my tenor and it was the C key that opened too much . I just added a piece of cork.
 
I'd suggest the pad heights too high will make everything a bit wild, especially for someone coming from a modern Selmeresque horn; and the wildest of all will be that high C#. (Flute players know this and generally put down some fingers on the RH when playing all-open C#; clarinetists know this and generally put down some fingers on the RH when playing throat A and Bb.)

Pulling a bit out will help, as it'll affect short tube notes more than long tube notes.

Make sure your clarinet playing friend has a clear handle on the difference between saxophone and clarinet embouchures.
 
You’d think so but in my post about mouthpieces, the Martin was out of tune with a Meyer, but in tune with a Selmer.
When I (a saxophone and mouthpiece tech in New Jersey, he did a very good job, it was my decision) took down the baffle and opened up the tip on my Dukoff D9 to make my playing less stuffy in the low register, I was sinking in the higher register. A lower roll over baffle, instead of Dukoffs step baffle, and wider tip opening was not what I needed on my "The Martin Baritone".

When I'm looking for mouthpieces for my Martins I try to something that is in the same style as the original that came along the sax when it was new. It cut costs and hours. The size of the chamber is important. The shape of the chamber , lay and tip opening is more a result of what "how and what" I'm playing.
 
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When I'm looking for mouthpieces for my Martins I try to something that is in the same style as the original that came along the sax when it was new. It cut costs and hours. The size of the chamber is important. The shape of the chamber , lay and tip opening is more a result of what "how and what" I'm playing.
I have the original unaltered Steve Broudas S 3 mouthpiece my Comm 2 came with. Would you like pictures and measurements?
 
...

When I'm looking for mouthpieces for my Martins I try to something that is in the same style as the original that came along the sax when it was new. It cut costs and hours. The size of the chamber is important. The shape of the chamber , lay and tip opening is more a result of what "how and what" I'm playing.
Well, my Skyline alto plays very nicely with good intonation using any MP I choose. I will point out though that I have almost 50 years experience on a Conn alto, so I'm used to the less-slotted feel of old horns.
 
Sometime in the future. I will measure the key heights of all my Martin altos. Will be interesting comparing the different years.
That information could help threads like this.
Handcraft
Handcraft Master
Troubadour
Typewriter
Committee 1, 2, & 3
Indiana
All saxes can be opened up (higher key-heights) and can be set with less key-heights as well. We use to talk about factory set-up but what is that? I re-padded a Kohlert Modell 1927 soprano and it was not possible to use the key-heights (factory set-up) because the old pads were thicker than the new "Snap-On-Pads" (metal back) I installed. I had to built up between the pad and the key cup.

A good tenor player told me he had his modern Yamaha opened up så it could "sing better". His tech opened up his modern Yamaha så it could sing better. He also told me that he lost key action with higher key-heights. So it's about to compromise? If we play in a orchestra or you play as only hornplayer at home or in a band, do we all need the same set-up on our saxes?

It would interesting to see if the differences when it comes to key-height, between differnt Martin alto saxes through the years. How to mesure?

Old Martin saxes have "wider octave" compared to Conn, Selmer, Buescher, King ..... saxes from the early 30's. The range of saxes were pretty much the same back then. From low Bb to high F 3 (ok Martin C-melody "Home Model" are keyed from C1 to C3). The sound/voice of an old Martin is different compared to other saxes made by big saxophone manufacturers. We like the charming voice of an old Martin. It's "wider". It's in tune but the timbre is different.

The music industry changed in in the 30's. Most of the music was played live; radio broadcasting, "stonecake" recordings, danceband in bigger or smaller dancehalls, clubs, at home, at schools ..... . 1935 became a "watershed" in Sweden. For the first time more recordings were sold instead of sheet music. In the 30's the music became more "standardardized" to meet the needs. More big radio productions (later televison), more recorded music, the "A 440 Hz" standard ..... . There were no/less demand for charming saxes in expensive music production. Conn, Buescher (True Tone), H.N. White/"King" (Voll-True) saxes became trademarks to show that it was a modern"tamed" sax with modern voice. No more High Pitch saxes, the timbre became more modern, the A 440 Hz standard became more dominant .... . Martin started to make the "Committee" saxes but kept the old models, and gave them new names, as well. In 1947 Martin took the last bore patent on an American made saxophone ( I don't know if Eagle Powell ..... ?) called the "polyconical bore". In the late 40's the contempoary music expanded thier small jazz combos, R&B and later on Rockabilly, Rock & Roll with more country influences ..... . Louder to match the juke boxes, radios in cars, transistor radios ..... it was the same as the mp3 and computer sound is today.

Some older saxplayers I have met are convienced that the American saxes were more flexible when it came to tuning. When players pick up an older saxophone with a complete new cork and the tune (blind) by thier ears without a tune fork, piano they are often closer to A 444 Hz than A 440 Hz.

Lots a ramble from me. I can't play sax all day long.
 
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Hi all, a young friend of mine has just bought the above horn-just been repadded, in good condition. He's struggling with the tuning and intonation, in particular, the high C#, which is massively sharp. So sharp, it's showing D on the tuner. He accepts that as a clarinet player he needs to loosen his embouchure, and we corrected a lot of tuning issues by pulling the mouthpiece off a good way. I reckon it's better to be in tune in the top octave and slightly flat in the bottom octave, than cringingly sharp in the top octave. I've tried it-nice horn, love the heart shaped thumbrest, lovely action and great sound, but the C# is deffo out. It was bought from a well respected restorer and dealer, and we know it'll need to be set up once the pads have bedded in. He's a good guy, and has said that he will happily change it for something else if it doesn't suit, but it's really close to being a great horn. Anyone else experienced the same issue? Sounds like some sort of regulation or set up issue? Cheers!
OK, IF my memory serves....Martins, pre-Comm 3....actually have an extra adjuster on the upper stack which addresses this.

IOW.....back when these were still "Handcraft" models, they realized a C# problem and added a mechanism which adjusts that keycup up or down without that height being solely governed by the B and A keys, as is usual. I think it actually closes the C cup half-down/lower when the octave key is engaged, or something...

It has been a while since I worked on a 1 or 2 but I am...70%.... sure that they have this adjuster.

For a tech who has never seen such a mechanism before, and it's a unique mechanism, they may just sorta blow by it as irrelevant.

If you could take a pic of that....it would be a photo of the back side of the upper stack aiming for the C key and the octave mechanism....then I could say for sure. I may be confusing it with another model, but something in the back of my grey matter was pinged by this...
 
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OK, IF my memory serves....Martins, pre-Comm 3....actually have an extra adjuster on the upper stack which addresses this.

IOW.....back when these were still "Handcraft" models, they realized a C# problem and added a mechanism which adjusts that keycup up or down without that height being solely governed by the B and A keys, as is usual. I think it actually closes the C cup half-down/lower when the octave key is engaged, or something...

It has been a while since I worked on a 1 or 2 but I am...70%.... sure that they have this adjuster.

For a tech who has never seen such a mechanism before, and it's a unique mechanism, they may just sorta blow by it as irrelevant.

If you could take a pic of that....it would be a photo of the back side of the upper stack aiming for the C key and the octave mechanism....then I could say for sure. I may be confusing it with another model, but something in the back of my grey matter was pinged by this...
Some do, some don't. My Skyline Committee 1 does NOT have the adjuster. All three of my old sopranos have it. Your description of how it works is roughly accurate. So, yes, OP's friend's horn may well have this adjuster, and a tech might well have disabled it on the grounds of not understanding it, so it's not needed (can we say "Fork Eb", everyone?)

I do not know if maybe that top tone hole got modified (size or position) and then the adjuster was deleted. Actually, the mechanism is really simple and it wouldn't be much of a job to add it.

As I've noted above, at least for me, with my mouthpieces and way of blowing, I do NOT find an unusually sharp high C# on my Martin; but I've been playing a Conn (which does NOT have the C# adjuster) for almost 50 years, so I'm well accustomed to the less-slotted feel of old saxes.
 
The HC Master (mid 1927 onwards) have the “Master key”. The little arm off the back bar to octave mechanism.
1764702721098.webp

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This is present on the series 3 HC, Troubadour and Typewriter. The Committee 1 has different system with an adjustment screw for C#.
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The key fully open
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As played the C# closes about 1/3 to 1/2 way.
1764703720130.webp
 

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