low notes revisited

[Colin the Bear]

When I smoked back in the day, it was common practice to block up the end, figer low Bb and blow smoke gently into the sax. The smoke would find and mark the leaks. I suppose one of them leak lights is the way to go these days.

 

[jrintaha]

What is a good way to check its closed? Can I ink it or something and then slip paper in to see if I get a full circle?

Like Kev said, the light is easiest. Just buy a bright LED bicycle light (small enough to fit down the neck), dangle it on a piece of wire and you're good to go. I always go to the bathroom and turn off the lights when I check for leaks on an instrument (usually an accordion, but I've checked my sax as well). It is very easy to see if there are any leaks. You will also be able to see if the B/Bb pads close at the same time or not.

I've got the same problem with the low notes, but I've progressed a bit, and can now get the B and C pretty nicely, even the Bb if I slur down to it. I guess for me it was mostly about diaphragm control - I do consciously kind of "push" differently for the low notes, and that's seemed to help.

Especially the Bb is still far from quiet, but I don't know how quiet it's even possible to be. (I would love to hear a recorded pianissimo Bb with some other sound to compare it with.) Yesterday I went outside (so that I wouldn't bother anybody) and tested how loud exactly the horn can be, and the Bb was decidedly louder than any of the other low notes. B and C were almost as loud, but C# and upwards were much quieter. It seems as soon as the vibrating air column reaches past the turn in the pipe, the volume goes up.

I hope you get your problem sorted out.

Cheers,
Jori

 

[Colin the Bear]

Wasn't the sax designed as a marching instrument. So loud is in the brief. With a good reed playing well and with the sax having a good day, low Bb can be softer than the hiss of air producing it. On an average day with an average reed it can be smooth. On a bad day with an illegitimate reed and the pad adjustment off for a wander, its a goose on steroids or a vintage car horn.

 

[jrintaha]

Wasn't the sax designed as a marching instrument. So loud is in the brief. With a good reed playing well and with the sax having a good day, low Bb can be softer than the hiss of air producing it. On an average day with an average reed it can be smooth. On a bad day with an illegitimate reed and the pad adjustment off for a wander, its a goose on steroids or a vintage car horn.

Thanks for the reply. So essentially, with a good horn and a good player it can indeed be about as quiet as any other note?

 

[kevgermany]

Thanks for the reply. So essentially, with a good horn and a good player it can indeed be about as quiet as any other note?

Yes, but the slightest leak and it all goes pear shaped. And we tend to blow hard/loud to get the horns to play low down despite the leaks - instead of getting them fixed. Soft reeds and practice, especially long tones, help a lot.

I'm also findong that the mouthpiece has a big influence.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

With care and patience, I can get the low Bb as a whisper, B not bad at all and C upwards not problem now. (Not on tenor at any rate. More on this). I have sent the tenor up to John Coppen in Tarragona to check out and even up the pinky cluster and fix the B pad that I disturbed seriously in my poking and twisting. I know I would have broken something eventually, fiddling about. I am looking forward to getting it back. As Kev pointed out there, maybe some kid did give up on sax for want of an adjustment. How can you know? I am playing alto now and the only real problem I am having is low D. I have gone back to reading every day so maybe I am getting a bit tired. With improv, I guess I take a little break when I feel like it. Never used to be a prob but havent played alto for extended periods at home this year. At work, I tend to blow loud, no problems then. I will let you know how the horn is, or how I am with it, when it comes back. Waiting on the battered Martin too.
Cheers all
Mike
PS Happy Monday guys.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

If anyone is still awake out there, I have got my tenor back. It had quite a bit wrong with it so so much for my dogged belief that it was in perfect nick. It is a better instrument now though sadly it has not made me a better player. Still difficulties at the low end though as reported before, I am gaining some results there. At least I now know its all technique and I can plod on with some hope of success. I read a few lines in a good book of scales and excercises on Monday. It was a tip given by a real proper musician to someone or other. It reads "some saxophones will not play the low notes even when properly adjusted. Dropping two or three corks from wine bottles down the bell can sometimes make these notes sound easily straight away." Sadly, it hasnt worked in mine, but I know it can play the notes, its just me that cant. Its a tip I thought might be useful to others though.

 

[kevgermany]

If anyone is still awake out there, I have got my tenor back. It had quite a bit wrong with it so so much for my dogged belief that it was in perfect nick. It is a better instrument now though sadly it has not made me a better player. Still difficulties at the low end though as reported before, I am gaining some results there. At least I now know its all technique and I can plod on with some hope of success. I read a few lines in a good book of scales and excercises on Monday. It was a tip given by a real proper musician to someone or other. It reads "some saxophones will not play the low notes even when properly adjusted. Dropping two or three corks from wine bottles down the bell can sometimes make these notes sound easily straight away." Sadly, it hasnt worked in mine, but I know it can play the notes, its just me that cant. Its a tip I thought might be useful to others though.

Mike, the secret to these low notes is a really open relaxed, loose embouchure a soft reed. Maybe a little less mouthpiece as well.

 

[llamedos]

If anyone is still awake out there, I have got my tenor back. It had quite a bit wrong with it so so much for my dogged belief that it was in perfect nick. It is a better instrument now though sadly it has not made me a better player. Still difficulties at the low end though as reported before, I am gaining some results there. At least I now know its all technique and I can plod on with some hope of success. I read a few lines in a good book of scales and excercises on Monday. It was a tip given by a real proper musician to someone or other. It reads "some saxophones will not play the low notes even when properly adjusted. Dropping two or three corks from wine bottles down the bell can sometimes make these notes sound easily straight away." Sadly, it hasnt worked in mine, but I know it can play the notes, its just me that cant. Its a tip I thought might be useful to others though.

Just a thought - perhaps the intention is that before throwing the corks down the bell you should actually drink the wine that was under them and see how that improves your low notes. I haven't tried it but I am drot as nunk as theeple pink I am.)

Dave

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Just a thought - perhaps the intention is that before throwing the corks down the bell you should actually drink the wine that was under them and see how that improves your low notes. I haven't tried it but I am drot as nunk as theeple pink I am.)

Dave

Oh good one indeed. But, cant stand the stuff. If it hasnt been distilled I cant drink it.

 

[Colin the Bear]

If the sax is good, then all notes should be possible, with a minimum of effort. Keep practicing but if it doesn't get better then a different mouthpiece is indicated.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Hi Colin. I am currently swapping between an Otto Link 7, generally pleasing result, a Selmer D, a Sharkbite 6 a Vandoren 5 an unmarked Beuscher, a Runyon Quantum 7 (I havent quite got this one tamed so its more for fun but a smashing mpc)
and reeds from 2 to 3 Rico, Vandoren, and Rico plasticised. Somedays one set up suits, somedays another. That I am sure is a situation made by my inconstant technique, but I am going to try to get a smaller tip Link. Its a mpc that really fits me. I am making progess though and when fully warmed up am not too ashamed though I would not go for a Low B if I was playing with a band. I will get there though.
Cheers all
Mike

 

[What]

Mike, the secret to these low notes is a really open relaxed, loose embouchure a soft reed. Maybe a little less mouthpiece as well.

I have to agree with this advice here. While I am learning my lower notes I notice I always do horribly at them till I relax and let my fingers move. I don't think too hard about the note I am trying to hit. My embouchure finds the nice firm but related position and as I keep trying I hit more and more. I still go through this with every note I pickup, but slowly I get the notes and can use them in tunes. I don't know if this is much help, I am still very new, but I hope it does.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Since this ones still alive I will add to it. Had a split lip so been on the strings for a week but at my last lesson I got my embouchure sorted out, a little more bottom lip curl than I was using, softly softly, and things are much much better even with the Link 7 and a fairly stiff 2.5 reed, Marca Superieur, that John Coppen chucked in the case when he fixed my sax. Seem to me to suit me, though I had never heard of them. I go back to the Link because its tone is noticeably better than any of the others, at least to my earhole. Also, I read a very neat piece on breathing for subtoning. Nothing new but well put. Breathe onto your hand, the breath is cold. Breathe from deep onto your hand the breath is hot. That's the breath we want.
Cheers all.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

I have been scouring the web for info on stripping a sax, removing laquer etc. (what a minefield - more opinions than my missus has) and I found a very sensible tip for overcoming some playing difficulties. It says always tune your sax before playing, even casually, as it may react badly to an air column that you introduce to it that is not what its design expects it to be. I shall try doing this as I hardly ever tune up unless I am using a backing track. The tip comes from cybersax.com which seems to be an interesting place. Its all Saints day here, missus away, so nothing much to do except fool around with the sax and get the Martin in bits.
Love and smackers
Mike

 

[Colin the Bear]

If you check page one of this thread, tuning was mentioned.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

It sure does, apologies for that. Just missed the significance of it. Makes good sense.
Mike

 

[kevgermany]

The tip comes from cybersax.com which seems to be an interesting place.

Great site, sadly no longer maintained. Bear, the owner had a stroke a few years ago. But the info there is still grade A, especially if you like his chatty style.

 

[jbtsax]

I will second the idea of playing the saxophone with the mouthpiece at its warmed up tuning spot every time. Many players will mark the place on the cork with a pen. This spot is not set in stone as temperature, humidity, reed strength, etc. all has an effect upon the pitch. However, it is a good starting point.

My experience as a teacher and player has taught me that slurring down a scale to the low note you are working on and then holding that note as a long tone is an effective way to practice. Rather than relaxing or loosening the embouchure to try to get the notes to come out, it is important to keep the embouchure the same and to "dial in" the note using the shape inside the mouth and the airstream. Generally speaking, blowing warm air, and playing the note with the same sensation as singing that pitch on an "AH" produces good results.

A recurring comment throughout this thread is changing mouthpieces and reeds. It is challenging enough to develop consistency in playing skills using the same set up every time you play. Changing set-ups back and forth makes it all the more difficult. My advice is to find a set-up you are comfortable with and stick with it. In the final analysis, it is the player that makes the equipment work---not the other way around.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

I agree with all of that. The changing and fiddling about comes because one day a set up works, another it may not. Its very very frustrating. As I mentioned before, its a player limitation, but I do notice not so much trouble in lessons when I can use a bit more oomph. Still, things are getting much much better and I guess I give the impression that all contact with my tenor is a disaster. Not so, but it does know how to wind me up when I least need it. Cheers all.
Mike