Looking for clues [alto sax, bizarre response]

[Mark_S]

As I play with the octave key depressed descending from high C, B, A, G, F, E, to lower D and then C, when I reach the D and C, the alto saxophone outputs A and G again! I'm new to saxophone, and don't even know where to look for the cause of this 'problem'.

Please don't reflexively tell me to take it to a shop. I can't afford to do that. I looked at those service prices they are out of the question. I picked up this Buechner sax for $75 and even that was a hit to the budget.

I have a workspace and a lot of tools and would prefer to try to resolve this myself, but the saxophone looks fine. It appears that all the valves/holes open and close properly. It plays well in the mid- and lower range. Thus far, I've only run into the odd response of the D and C keys at the low end when the octave key is depressed.

I'd greatly appreciate any hints or clues or points in the direction of possible issues that might be offered. Thanks!

 

[PigSquealer]

welcome to the Café Mark.
Check for leaks. Matt has many great learning videos.

View: https://youtu.be/e5dsY0xzzec

 

[Ixthusdan]

Both octaves might be opened; only one should be. Check that mechanism. Pressing G should open the lower pip and above G opens the pip on the neck. Or the lower pip is not opening. Just guessing.Since it only happens with use of the octave, then that is what to check.

 

[turf3]

Most likely you're just pinching and overblowing those notes.

 

[Mark_S]

Both octaves might be opened; only one should be. Check that mechanism. Pressing G should open the lower pip and above G opens the pip on the neck. Or the lower pip is not opening. Just guessing.Since it only happens with use of the octave, then that is what to check.

You're right! That's it. I can see the mechanism on the neck trying to close, but not closing down, as the G is pressed and the lower octave valve opens.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Later when you have learned not to do this, it will take quite an effort to learn to do it at will and on purpose.
Meanwhile leave the C for now. C with octave key is for later.
Your problem might be you and it might be the horn. D2 problems can be a leak. A common culprit is the Bis key not closing fully but any of the lower stack, RH keys, not closing fully can cause problems.
It may also, as has been said, be the octave mechanism. Alternately finger G2 to A2 and watch the mechanism is switching from body to neck and make sure they are closing when they are closed. The neck octave often goes out of whack no matter how careful you are.
If all appears well with the horn, then it could be you. Adjust your embouchure and oral cavity to better suit the notes you are trying to sound.

Edit you posted while I was typing

 

[jbtsax]

If the 4th line D does not play or goes to a higher note (overtone)

Make sure the neck is in the right position then check to see that there is at least a 1/16" gap between the neck octave key ring and the post extending from the body. If there is not to adjust, place your thumb between the ring and the body of the neck and then gently push down on the octave key. Should you go too far, place a craft stick or tongue depressor under the pad and carefully push back on the ring until the desired gap is achieved.

To test the octave key adjustment on saxes---finger G and forcefully hit the thumb octave key several times watching the neck octave pad. It should not raise or bounce if in good adjustment. Then finger from G to A while pressing the thumb octave. The neck and body octave keys should alternate opening and closing completely.

Another test is to press the thumb octave lever hard without pressing any other keys and see if the neck octave key opens. As in the previous case, make sure there is a gap between the ring and the post. On some saxes with a “spongy” cork beneath the thumb octave lever a wider gap may be necessary.

 

[Mark_S]

Later when you have learned not to do this, it will take quite an effort to learn to do it at will and on purpose.
Meanwhile leave the C for now. C with octave key is for later.
Your problem might be you and it might be the horn. D2 problems can be a leak. A common culprit is the Bis key not closing fully but any of the lower stack, RH keys, not closing fully can cause problems.
It may also, as has been said, be the octave mechanism. Alternately finger G2 to A2 and watch the mechanism is switching from body to neck and make sure they are closing when they are closed. The neck octave often goes out of whack no matter how careful you are.
If all appears well with the horn, then it could be you. Adjust your embouchure and oral cavity to better suit the notes you are trying to sound.

Edit you posted while I was typing

Thanks for information! It was the octave mechanism. I carefully bent the loop that works the neck valve to allow it to descend and close when the G is pressed. That did the trick. Yes, I 'm adjusting lips, throat, placement and angle of lips on reed/mouthpiece, etc, everything to get a good tone on each note. Being consistent with these adjustments will take time!

 

[Mark_S]

If the 4th line D does not play or goes to a higher note (overtone)

Make sure the neck is in the right position then check to see that there is at least a 1/16" gap between the neck octave key ring and the post extending from the body. If there is not to adjust, place your thumb between the ring and the body of the neck and then gently push down on the octave key. Should you go too far, place a craft stick or tongue depressor under the pad and carefully push back on the ring until the desired gap is achieved.

To test the octave key adjustment on saxes---finger G and forcefully hit the thumb octave key several times watching the neck octave pad. It should not raise or bounce if in good adjustment. Then finger from G to A while pressing the thumb octave. The neck and body octave keys should alternate opening and closing completely.

Another test is to press the thumb octave lever hard without pressing any other keys and see if the neck octave key opens. As in the previous case, make sure there is a gap between the ring and the post. On some saxes with a “spongy” cork beneath the thumb octave lever a wider gap may be necessary.

Thanks! This adjustment was exactly what was needed. I'm getting nice notes there now. Obliged.

 

[BigT]

Thanks! This adjustment was exactly what was needed. I'm getting nice notes there now. Obliged.

Hi Mark, as a beginner I was in the same situation a few weeks ago with help here got it sorted. On further advice I built myself a cheap leak light from parts I scavenged at the local waste tip and various bits and bobs in the attic. Following advice I then checked the horn for leaks and found a few which with help from guys on here fixed. I have also been given the following advice which I guess I would have got from a tutor but due to as very serious lockdown here that’s not possible and as you have said money is tight just now anyhow.
1)if you put the mouthpiece on the neck with the neck off the horn be careful you don’t squeeze the octave mechanism (I did and that’s what caused the overtone)
2) gently polish the neck tenon with brass cleaner as it’s not lacquered and can get verdigris on it. When polished apply cork grease to help it ease in to the body and do not tighten it too much or you can crush the neck tenon and cause an expensive leak.
3) when fitting the neck to the body, tuck the horn under your arm with the bell down and your left hand supporting under the front. Ease the neck in and line it up. This prevents any damage to the stack or spring getting dislodged (did that one).
4) always always swab the horn out after playing and dry the pads with a kitchen towel or micro cloth pad. Helps stop the pads sticking. If they do stick they can be cleaned with a cotton bud and water.
I am no expert but I hope that info is helpful, it certainly helped me.
I am sure if any of the above is incorrect, further advice from more experienced players will follow.

 

[DavidUK]

Hi Mark, good to see you got it sorted. Are you going to hang around and have a look at what else we can help you with on the forum? There are a load of resources here. Also, tell us a bit more about your sax (photos obligatory) so we can see what a bargain you got (my penchant).

 

[Stephen Howard]

2) gently polish the neck tenon with brass cleaner as it’s not lacquered and can get verdigris on it. When polished apply cork grease to help it ease in to the body and do not tighten it too much or you can crush the neck tenon and cause an expensive leak.

Nope, don't polish the tenon - and definitely don't use a brass cleaner. It contains abrasive particles of a type that may embed themselves in the joint under pressure - and that would be very bad news. There's a very low risk of this happening, but a risk nonetheless (with potentially a costly repair involved).
If you want to clean the tenon, just use cigarette lighter fluid (or any other domestic solvent). Clean the receiver out too while you're at it. Once it's clean you shouldn't need to apply any grease to it.

 

[BigT]

Nope, don't polish the tenon - and definitely don't use a brass cleaner. It contains abrasive particles of a type that may embed themselves in the joint under pressure - and that would be very bad news. There's a very low risk of this happening, but a risk nonetheless (with potentially a costly repair involved).
If you want to clean the tenon, just use cigarette lighter fluid (or any other domestic solvent). Clean the receiver out too while you're at it. Once it's clean you shouldn't need to apply any grease to it.

I should have said a Jewellers Rouge impregnated cloth, that’s what I use for some clock parts. It was the Tech that serviced my Alto, Grahame De Vere White who told me to grease the tenon. So with respect I’ll continue to do so as it feels a lot nicer.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I couldn't tell you whether rouge is embedding or not as I don't use it these days - but I do know that if you don't degrease the part after polishing you'll leave particles of it behind. Once it combines with the cork grease you have a slightly abrasive paste.
Also, a greased tenon sleeve will pick up grit - which will stick to the tenon sleeve and get transferred into the joint when you assemble it. It only needs to happen the once and then you can be in real trouble - whereas you need to be lucky every time you fit the crook.
It's not something I'd do to any of my horns. Hence my advice...for what it's worth.

 

[Ixthusdan]

I always dry the neck tenon with my towel. My towel I have is a fine small cloth, that only makes contact with moisture. I was taught to never ever put anything on the neck tenon. If it does not fit, too tight or too loose, to the shop it must go. Neck tenons can get ruined easily, including with cork grease. At least that is how I was taught. I must say that over the years I have replaced a pad, greased the cork on the neck, tightened screws and cleaned an instrument by hand without any cleaner. (I have never owned silver) The neck tenon is one part I have never had a problem with.

 

[DavidUK]

I'm not sure who told me, but for neck tenons I use one of those small washing up sponges, one side yellow foam, the other curly green plastic 'scourer'. Don't use a metal scourer!
Grip the tenon in the DRY curly plastic side and twist, then roll the sponge into a tube, curly side out, and twist it down the neck socket to clean that out too.
Works a treat!
I'll now wait for Steve to tell me off...

 

[Stephen Howard]

I always dry the neck tenon with my towel. My towel I have is a fine small cloth, that only makes contact with moisture. I was taught to never ever put anything on the neck tenon. If it does not fit, too tight or too loose, to the shop it must go. Neck tenons can get ruined easily, including with cork grease. At least that is how I was taught.

That's about the size of it.
The most a tenon should ever need is a wipe with a bit of nose grease...and even that tells you it probably needs a clean. If it's not a smooth dry fit, it needs fixing.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I'm not sure who told me, but for neck tenons I use one of those small washing up sponges, one side yellow foam, the other curly green plastic 'scourer'. Don't use a metal scourer!
Grip the tenon in the DRY curly plastic side and twist, then roll the sponge into a tube, curly side out, and twist it down the neck socket to clean that out too.
Works a treat!
I'll now wait for Steve to tell me off...

Hah! That should be fine. A plastic scourer won't do any harm.

 

[LostCircuits]

Hi Mark, as a beginner I was in the same situation a few weeks ago with help here got it sorted. On further advice I built myself a cheap leak light from parts I scavenged at the local waste tip and various bits and bobs in the attic. Following advice I then checked the horn for leaks and found a few which with help from guys on here fixed. I have also been given the following advice which I guess I would have got from a tutor but due to as very serious lockdown here that’s not possible and as you have said money is tight just now anyhow.
1)if you put the mouthpiece on the neck with the neck off the horn be careful you don’t squeeze the octave mechanism (I did and that’s what caused the overtone)
2) gently polish the neck tenon with brass cleaner as it’s not lacquered and can get verdigris on it. When polished apply cork grease to help it ease in to the body and do not tighten it too much or you can crush the neck tenon and cause an expensive leak.
3) when fitting the neck to the body, tuck the horn under your arm with the bell down and your left hand supporting under the front. Ease the neck in and line it up. This prevents any damage to the stack or spring getting dislodged (did that one).
4) always always swab the horn out after playing and dry the pads with a kitchen towel or micro cloth pad. Helps stop the pads sticking. If they do stick they can be cleaned with a cotton bud and water.
I am no expert but I hope that info is helpful, it certainly helped me.
I am sure if any of the above is incorrect, further advice from more experienced players will follow.

Never use brass cleaner on a saxophone! The harshest you can possibly use is jewelry cleaner such as Wright's silver polish or tarnish remover but even that only on very rare occasions.

For daily cleaning and maintenance, charcoal lighter fluid as suggested by Steven, and WD-40 in its various branding iterations are good choices. And do not add any oil to the tenon either, the combination of oil and dust is called lapping compound and it is the last thing you want to apply to your tenon unless you go for that airy sound caused by a tenon leak

 

[Mark_S]

Hi Mark, as a beginner I was in the same situation a few weeks ago with help here got it sorted. On further advice I built myself a cheap leak light from parts I scavenged at the local waste tip and various bits and bobs in the attic. Following advice I then checked the horn for leaks and found a few which with help from guys on here fixed. I have also been given the following advice which I guess I would have got from a tutor but due to as very serious lockdown here that’s not possible and as you have said money is tight just now anyhow.
1)if you put the mouthpiece on the neck with the neck off the horn be careful you don’t squeeze the octave mechanism (I did and that’s what caused the overtone)
2) gently polish the neck tenon with brass cleaner as it’s not lacquered and can get verdigris on it. When polished apply cork grease to help it ease in to the body and do not tighten it too much or you can crush the neck tenon and cause an expensive leak.
3) when fitting the neck to the body, tuck the horn under your arm with the bell down and your left hand supporting under the front. Ease the neck in and line it up. This prevents any damage to the stack or spring getting dislodged (did that one).
4) always always swab the horn out after playing and dry the pads with a kitchen towel or micro cloth pad. Helps stop the pads sticking. If they do stick they can be cleaned with a cotton bud and water.
I am no expert but I hope that info is helpful, it certainly helped me.
I am sure if any of the above is incorrect, further advice from more experienced players will follow.

Many thanks. You know that phase shift as your plane lands? That's happening now. At first, I couldn't penetrate the complexity, and was afraid to touch or dislodge anything, but now I'm seeing through/into it. I'll be careful! The fragility and sensitivity of the thing is obvious. I'm in a position of having got a.used and abused horn for very little money, and wondering if the weird sounds are me, the horn, the mouthpiece, the reed, all or none of the above, etc ... Good news is, i'm getting the notes to sound alright now.