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Tech/maintenance Left Hand Pinky Keys out of alignment

Halfers

Halfers

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Somehow my left hand pinky keys have gone out of alignment. When I bought my sax, the keys were perfectly in line, with the rollers lining up nicely. Now it seems that the two middle keys are slightly out of alignment and the lower key seems to be sitting back from the keys above it. It's very difficult to capture in a photo but I've attempted with the attached pic.

My Teacher seems to think the lowest key has been bent back? How this has happened is beyond me, but it clearly has! There don't seem to be any stress marks on the rods or on the metalwork around the keys.

Having got over the annoyance of it happening, the question is, is this an easy fix? All the keys work, but the misaligned keys make moving the little finger around more difficult.

I clearly need to be more careful in the future..

20170710_162533.webp
 
Communication is much better when the names of the keys are used. On the LH table they are: G#, low C#, low B, and low Bb. Typically all of the keys (keytouches) should be on the same plane. From the photograph you have a "tilting low Bb spatula which means it moves down and rotates back at the same time. With this type of low Bb touch just the front portion of the key is on the same plane as the rest since the back of the key tilts upwards.

In most instances the height of the Bb and B natural can be adjusted by using the bumper felts of the key guards. It is important that the low Bb not have lost motion before contacting the B. The height of the C# is more complicated, Sometimes the arm of the touchpiece needs to be bent, and in other cases the arm that extends from the hinge tube of the low C# key. These adjustments are best left to an experienced tech.
 
jbtsax said:
Communication is much better when the names of the keys are used. On the LH table they are: G#, low C#, low B, and low Bb. Typically all of the keys (keytouches) should be on the same plane. From the photograph you have a "tilting low Bb spatula which means it moves down and rotates back at the same time. With this type of low Bb touch just the front portion of the key is on the same plane as the rest since the back of the key tilts upwards.

In most instances the height of the Bb and B natural can be adjusted by using the bumper felts of the key guards. It is important that the low Bb not have lost motion before contacting the B. The height of the C# is more complicated, Sometimes the arm of the touchpiece needs to be bent, and in other cases the arm that extends from the hinge tube of the low C# key. These adjustments are best left to an experienced tech.
Click to expand...

Apologies for the lack of terminology, but it's all new to me at the moment, hence the attempt to show in pictorial fashion! Thank you for the info. It's a little bit above my head in terms of phraseology, but one thing for sure is I won't be attempting to fix the situation myself.
 
It could be a trick of the light, but it looks like there's no clearance between the Bb spatula (the large tilting one) and the B/C# spats (the ones in the middle).
If you look at the G# spatula you'll see that there's a small gap between it and the B/C# spats - and you should have this sort of gap between the Bb and B/C#.

If this is the case then it might be that the Bb is binding on the middle spats, and they're preventing it from rising fully.
Have a peek at the other end of the keys (the key cups). Above each key cup you'll see a cylinder of felt (or cork/rubber) sitting in an adjustable holder. When the keys are at rest both the low B and the low Bb key cups should be touching these 'buffers'. If the Bb spat is binding, it might show up by virtue of one or both of the key cups not making contact with the buffer.

This might be fairly easy to remedy. Simply grab the Bb spatula and gently but firmly pull it backwards. It'll be quite springy, so you'll be unlikely to do any damage. Give it a gentle tug and see what happens. If nothing happens (the gap doesn't increase) give it a slightly firmer tug.

And while you're there, take a peek at where the key is held in place against the pillar. There are four pillar heads in a row, each with a point screw in them - and it's these that hold the keys on to the horn. When you wiggle the Bb spat, does the key wobble about near the pillar? If so it might mean a point screw has come loose (or dropped out).

This might sort the problem out - though it also looks like the outer end of the Bb spat is too low - which suggests the spat has been bent downwards. This can happen when you lay the sax down on its side on a hard surface.
Brass (which is what the keys are made of) can be unpredictable stuff at times. You can whack it hard and it won't even blink...and yet sometimes you just give it a light tap and it folds up like a sheet of paper.

This is about all you can do on your own. As JBT says, it's a complicated key cluster and will almost certainly require the services of a repairer to put it right.

It won't be expensive...assuming it's just a bent key.
Unfortunately the symptoms are also indicative of a bell that's been shunted out of line.
 
Stephen Howard said:
It could be a trick of the light, but it looks like there's no clearance between the Bb spatula (the large tilting one) and the B/C# spats (the ones in the middle).
If you look at the G# spatula you'll see that there's a small gap between it and the B/C# spats - and you should have this sort of gap between the Bb and B/C#.

If this is the case then it might be that the Bb is binding on the middle spats, and they're preventing it from rising fully.
Have a peek at the other end of the keys (the key cups). Above each key cup you'll see a cylinder of felt (or cork/rubber) sitting in an adjustable holder. When the keys are at rest both the low B and the low Bb key cups should be touching these 'buffers'. If the Bb spat is binding, it might show up by virtue of one or both of the key cups not making contact with the buffer.

This might be fairly easy to remedy. Simply grab the Bb spatula and gently but firmly pull it backwards. It'll be quite springy, so you'll be unlikely to do any damage. Give it a gentle tug and see what happens. If nothing happens (the gap doesn't increase) give it a slightly firmer tug.

And while you're there, take a peek at where the key is held in place against the pillar. There are four pillar heads in a row, each with a point screw in them - and it's these that hold the keys on to the horn. When you wiggle the Bb spat, does the key wobble about near the pillar? If so it might mean a point screw has come loose (or dropped out).

This might sort the problem out - though it also looks like the outer end of the Bb spat is too low - which suggests the spat has been bent downwards. This can happen when you lay the sax down on its side on a hard surface.
Brass (which is what the keys are made of) can be unpredictable stuff at times. You can whack it hard and it won't even blink...and yet sometimes you just give it a light tap and it folds up like a sheet of paper.

This is about all you can do on your own. As JBT says, it's a complicated key cluster and will almost certainly require the services of a repairer to put it right.

It won't be expensive...assuming it's just a bent key.
Unfortunately the symptoms are also indicative of a bell that's been shunted out of line.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Yes, the clearance is a little less on the Bb key. Both key cups seem to be resting on the felt pillars and there doesn't seem to be any screws loose on the pillar heads. I can bend the Bb key out and it comes more into line but it doesn't stay in place. I don't want to force it any further.

A slightly depressing start to ownership as it's either been round my neck, in its case or on my bed, but I'm just going to have to suck it up as a lesson learned.

I've been quoted around £60 from the music shop I bought it from. That was from my description over the phone.
 
Some cases offer little protection and a bump while the sax is in the case can transfer all the weight of the sax to one point and movement occurs. Stuff stacked on top of the case can apply pressure to the instrument

Extra kit, stored in the case can move about and whack something.

Before closing the case, check nothing has moved, cloths, cleaning brushes etc and is fouling the lid as you close it. Don't force the lid closed. If it doesn't close easily something is amiss.

Modern saxophones have most of the moving parts down one side. If you have to lay the sax down, then have all the moving parts uppermost. It may help to loosen the neck screw to let the crook lie flat.
 
£60 sounds a bit pricey - if it turns out just to be a bent key.
Hopefully they'll give you a thorough explanation of what went wrong so that you can avoid the same thing happening again.
 
Stephen Howard said:
£60 sounds a bit pricey - if it turns out just to be a bent key.
Hopefully they'll give you a thorough explanation of what went wrong so that you can avoid the same thing happening again.
Click to expand...

I thought it was a bit pricey too. I will speak with my Teacher on Friday. Anyone know of a good Tech in or near to Southampton so I could perhaps get another quote.
 
Most shops will not give "estimates" over the phone. When they do, they often quote on the high side. The thinking is that they will get a better customer response when the instrument is brought in if the price turns out to be lower than the quoted estimate, rather than higher than the price given over the phone.

My favorite gimmick is the computer repair place that charges you $50 when you drop the computer off to be repaired. Then a week later when you pick it up the repair charge seems quite reasonable since you have forgotten that you have already put down $50.
 
Thanks to Stephen Howard for sorting out my Pinky Key issues this morning. A very pleasant couple of hours watching a Techie at work and talking about the Sax and music in general. As well as realigning the keys he fixed a couple of leaks and I got to hear how my Sax sounds when played properly!! All for what I consider to be a very reasonable rate. :clapping:
 
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My ST8 had to have a minor service despite it being in its case in the boot of the car. Now the case was a decent fit in the boot and not able to move much fore or aft. I had to brake very hard (enough for ABS etc to cut in) due to someone pulling out in front - I was doing 60 and came to a full stop. That was enough force even though the case was firmly in place and the sax was properly in the case for the mechanism to get a shunt and when I got where I was going (Café Ensemble I think?) it was virtually unplayable.
It was a trip to the tech and some minor leaks to sort out and adjustments. Cost was minimal but a demonstration of how easily they go out of alignment. I'm not aware of similar issues with other woodwind instruments such as flutes or clarinets?
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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