Beginner Learning to read standard notation vs using the note names

[eb424]

Nobody can grumble about that

Is that genuine approval..

 

[Pete Effamy]

Is that genuine approval..

We all have our own relationship with music Eddie, and what we want to get from it.

Our own character either allows us enjoyment from our achievements or it doesn’t. I suppose that the ideal is to enjoy the journey.

You: are getting out there and making music - everyone must applaud that (even if your methods drive us up the wall )

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have moved some off topic posts from the Self teaching resources thread to this thread.

If you want notifications for posts in this new thread you may need to click on the Watch button at the top of the thread

 

[Vetinari]

For our ensemble the score shows all parts (some times 10 pages) transcribed to correct key for each sax. Individual parts are separate and usually only 2-3 pages. Many tunes we play we have not heard before. I play baritone and some tunes play low A to Top F in the same bar. I could not do that without dots. If only the score is available then using pdf-jpg converters and cut and paste in paint cuts my part down to 2-3 pages.

 

[lydian]

Can we stop using the word “score”? It’s only today, after a few years that I’ve seen what Eddie means.

Anything with all the parts on the same page I call a score. Is there a different term in the UK?

 

[thomsax]

You must play the horn parts as they are written. When I played in a horn section we had all horn parts written and we played/learned the horn parts as they were written. Even easy stuff like "I'm A Man", "Hoochie Coochie Man", "Hi Heels Sneakers" ..... . I could play the easy stuff from memory. In fact I played most horn parts from memory. But some good (maybe they weren't so good after all) and experienced players couldn't play without a note stand and sheet music in front of them. That's also weried? Addicted?? I don't know why a person that writes a letter on the sheet music seems to be odd while a player that can't play without sheet music must have a paper in front of them? I'm a tolerant person. Just do what you like as long as we are making good noise, friendly to each other and having fun.

 

[thomsax]

@eb424 How did "Mustang Sally" come out?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Anything with all the parts on the same page I call a score. Is there a different term in the UK?

No that’s correct. It’s after Eddie uploaded a photo of lyrics and note letter names

 

[Vetinari]

a player that can't play without sheet music must have a paper in front of them? .

Poor memory in my case.

 

[lydian]

@thomsax , the only reason I dredged reading back up was a recent post from another beginner who said they didn’t want to learn to read. I was just trying to convince them that they should. I realize Eddie will never need to read charts. But it would save him the trouble of writing his own. That dead horse has been thoroughly beaten.

I admit that I rely very heavily on reading due to the nature of my gigs. I have to play hundreds of different charts all the time, many of which I never see until the downbeat at the gig. And of those, most are inner harmony parts that make no logical sense which makes them more difficult to memorize. So why bother memorizing hundreds of weird parts I may never play again?

I stand by my recommendation for any beginner to learn to read.

 

[thomsax]

Poor memory in my case.

Yes, and that's is fine. That's why we use sheet music. I'm not reading/playing so complicated arrangements so I understand that you need sheet music.

We played "Real Real Gone" for some years in different keys (different singers). A tenor player couldn't play without the horn part. We did the song in concert G and also in C. We changed the horn part once so the tenor part that was on the note stand was in D instead of A. The tenorist had the wrong sheet music but played just fine. She is a fine player. But that shows she didn't need the sheet music.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I realize Eddie will never need to read charts.

I admit that I rely very heavily on reading due to the nature of my gigs.

Needing to read and the usefulness of being able to read are two very different things. Obviously one needs to read to do gigs that require that ability, but the other aspect is the time you can save and the added value that it gives your practicing. If you ever want to memorise a tune, then one very important tool is the ability to read music because it allows you to internally visualise, or virtually "hear" the music just by looking at the notation.

Somewhere else it was said that when music is memorised, 9 times out of 10 you play it better. Although that may not apply to those who have memorised the music but want the notation there "just in case" - so then the confidence of knowing you could have a quick glance if you forgot something may help you.

But if you rely on reading note names then it is a method that is big waste of time and can really hold you back in terms of musicality.

 

[Vetinari]

Teacher used to say go from dot to fingers. While playing it's faster than going dot, note name, fingers. While playing it doesn't matter what it's called as long as fingers are in the correct place.

 

[Pete Thomas]

While playing it doesn't matter what it's called as long as fingers are in the correct place.

Or:

While playing it doesn't matter what it's called as long as fingers and brain are in the right place.

 

[thomsax]

@thomsax , the only reason I dredged reading back up was a recent post from another beginner who said they didn’t want to learn to read. I was just trying to convince them that they should. I realize Eddie will never need to read charts. But it would save him the trouble of writing his own. That dead horse has been thoroughly beaten.

I admit that I rely very heavily on reading due to the nature of my gigs. I have to play hundreds of different charts all the time, many of which I never see until the downbeat at the gig. And of those, most are inner harmony parts that make no logical sense which makes them more difficult to memorize. So why bother memorizing hundreds of weird parts I may never play again?

I stand by my recommendation for any beginner to learn to read.

Yes, reading music is important. Especially when you decide that music is going to pay your bills. I'm impressed by musicians that can do club gigs, play symphonic music and play a big band wedding gig within a week. From "Hoochie Coochie Man" to ABBA gold.

 

[Vetinari]

Saw the Hallė orchestra a few weeks back and they all have the dots.

 

[eb424]

@eb424 How did "Mustang Sally" come out?

Havent played it think it needs time..I was tryingbto get a set sorted, got to do an open mic..good to hear from you..

 

[BigMartin]

So the rhythm is covered by drums strings etc

I'm talking about the rhythm of the melody part itself. For some songs it's rather important (eg "Fascinating Rhythm"). How is that covered by drums, strings etc?

 

[turf3]

Needing to read and the usefulness of being able to read are two very different things. Obviously one needs to read to do gigs that require that ability, but the other aspect is the time you can save and the added value that it gives your practicing. If you ever want to memorise a tune, then one very important tool is the ability to read music because it allows you to internally visualise, or virtually "hear" the music just by looking at the notation.

Somewhere else it was said that when music is memorised, 9 times out of 10 you play it better. Although that may not apply to those who have memorised the music but want the notation there "just in case" - so then the confidence of knowing you could have a quick glance if you forgot something may help you.

But if you rely on reading note names then it is a method that is big waste of time and can really hold you back in terms of musicality.

I wish I had a copy of Andrew N White III's essay on "The Fallacy of the Oral Tradition", where he, as an African American musician deeply steeped in African American improvised music, described emphatically and eloquently just why and how WRITING IT DOWN saves time and prevents errors. Not the attitude you might expect from someone so deeply involved in that form of music.

And it's clear that the most efficient way to communicate music in writing is standard notation. There is room for improvement in standard notation (though little has been proposed and none adopted), but of the systems currently available (tab, standard, written note letters, etc.) standard notation always outperforms the others.

 

[lydian]

I’m curious how others memorize music, simple melodies, not Rachmaninoff piano concertos. For me, it’s not a collection of note names. I literally play back the tune in my head and play along without ever thinking note names, just matching sounds in my head. Such tunes I would have learned entirely by ear in the first place without ever writing anything down.

I don’t have perfect pitch. But if someone asks me to play a tune I’ve never played before but have at least heard before, I can usually play it by following along with the sounds in my head, again with no concept note names coming into play at all, but possibly thinking intervals or major/minor. I imagine this is what most people do, but I’ve never asked.