Saxophones Jumping jiving on Silver eggs: about materials

Is the blurb in this ad about silver crystal alignment all a load of old twaddle?!......

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brendon-T...042?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485efa76da


:confused2:
probably...
directionally solidified casting is used in the aerospace industry to give extra strength and relieve internal stresses in castings.
The likelihood that it would make any noticeable difference to the sound and playability of a mouthpiece is pretty slim. The care and attention to the finishing of the baffle, chamber and rails is what makes a mouthpiece good
I'm sure Mr Tibbs must be getting it right, otherwise he wouldn't be in business, I just wish he'd not make unjustified claims about the superiority of silver for mouthpieces..
 
Is the blurb in this ad about silver crystal alignment all a load of old twaddle?!......

This topic is such a can of worms that it is almost forbidden another saxophone forum.
My personal opinion is:
- It cannot be scientifically proven, for many reasons, including the ones mentioned by Altissimo.
- Many honest and reliable musicians and makers think it makes a difference, based on empirical experience.
- I am among them and I am still experimenting.

I consider the opinions of Pete Thomas, Ed Pillinger or Morgan Fry (and more) more interesting than a debatable scientific research. I am currently experimenting with an expensive tenor neck in a new alloy that St. Nicholas brought me. It definitely behaves differently than the other 4 I already have. It might be the material, it might be something else.

"Hardness" seems to be an influential aspect in mouthpieces/necks/horns
 
It definitely behaves differently than the other 4 I already have. It might be the material, it might be something else.

Or a combination of the two. Different materials can behave differently during a manufacturing process, especially where bending or forming is concerned. I'm not sure about necks, but I believe this is especially relevant when toneholes are extruded, any differences in the "bend" of the right angle where the tonehole chimney comes out of the body can have a big effect and different metals may well cause this to happen - though it's still the geometry that causes the difference as opposed to something intrinsic about the "acoustic" of the metal
 
So it is nigh on impossible to prove - one way or the other?

In some very specific conditions
it has been proven to an acceptable degree it does NOT make a difference.

I was about to accept this conclusion after Pete posted some test clips. But then I heard him in person and tried the pieces myself, and I had to change my mind again 🙂.

The actual playing conditions are too complex to be formalized, at the moment.

Or a combination of the two. Different materials can behave differently during a manufacturing process, especially where bending or forming is concerned.

Hence my question in post 76.
Looking forward to read your comments about the new piece.
 
On these subjects I just say what I think. If you think a certain thing does sounds better for a given reason then that's you sorted. Again its like lacquered vs unlace and etc etc. Just try something and if you like it buy it. I think silver horns have there own sound but that's my opinion and I don't need proof as my own is enough.
 
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Well put Davey, bit like the time I tried a Cannonball tenor with two necks, one brass and one silver, to me the silver one was completely different but others say there is no difference, like you say your own opinion is the only one you need.
 
the number of potential variables involved in making a scientific study of the effects of mouthpiece material would include

- making several identical mouthpieces in a variety of different materials. Exactly how you'd make accurate measurements of the internal shape of a mouthpiece is beyond my comprehension
- positioning the ligature and reed in exactly the same place on each mouthpiece and tightening up the ligature to the same tension
- placing your lips on each mouthpiece in the same place
- shaping your embouchure in the same way
- standing in the same position in front of the measurement microphone

from what I've observed, no acoustic instrument will ever make exactly the same waveform twice - the phase angle between the harmonics is always slightly different and constantly changing

as players we perceive the sound differently than a listener or microphone - we hear by bone conduction as well as the sound in the air and the different densities of brass, silver, hard rubber etc will affect the way the sound is conducted to the eardrum.
I've found that the same mouthpiece and reed can sound different from one day to the next and I use synthetic reeds and leave them on my mouthpiece, so no variation of ligature or reed involved.
I have recordings of myself playing different makes of mouthpieces and saxes with quite different sounds when I'm playing them and I can't tell them apart on the recordings.

While it's quite possible that mechanical properties of the material a mouthpiece is made from may have some effect on the sound, I'm inclined to think that the effects of my embouchure overwhelm any subtle effects of the hardness and density of what the mouthpiece is made of, or what the sax is plated or lacquered with etc
Other people may have different experiences - we're not all the same.
If someone finds a metal mouthpiece to be different to an ebonite one, that's fine, but not everyone will have the same experience.
This is why I try to stay out of discussions on subjects like mouthpiece material, ligatures, reeds, effects of silver plating, lacquer etc. Without hard data it's just one person's word against another and it soon becomes divisive and yields more heat than light.
If having a new mouthpiece enhances your playing experience, that's good. Being quite happy with what you've got already is also good. In general I've found that happiness is a good thing - happy new year!!!
 
Well put Davey, bit like the time I tried a Cannonball tenor with two necks, one brass and one silver, to me the silver one was completely different but others say there is no difference, like you say your own opinion is the only one you need.

I find the two necks on my Cannonball different when on both the playing end and the listening end. Like most people who have a preference over materials in the sax/mouthpiece/lig, I don't really care whether it's proven or not, I just play.
 
The two supplied canonball necks were designed to be different and it`s a nice touch to get both . necks can make or break a sound depending on our likes and needs.. I like having the two necks for my 62 Alto , the Mk1 Purple era one is loud and bright, the MkIII 62-label one dark and deep,
More companies ought to supply two necks and IMO, most of all Yamaha by re-introducing the old Mk1 neck and supplying both with all horns from the 62 upwards .
 
I'm of the opinion if it feels better, you play differently. When it's right there's some sort of connection and you can do no wrong. I play outside a lot. Moving six feet on a street can affect the sound almost as much as the weather. I won't play if it's too hot or if it's raining. I often change the reed if the money stops or is slow and it never ceases to surprise me that although I couldn't detect any difference, the money says different. I think some players have such a strong personality and flexibility in their embouchure that they adapt and sound the same, whereas others find a little help goes a long way.

When was music ever appreciated empirically. Some of the best and moving experiences aren't even in tune lol
 
I'm of the opinion if it feels better, you play differently.

I'm inclined to think that the effects of my embouchure overwhelm any subtle effects of the hardness and density of what the mouthpiece is made of, or what the sax is plated or lacquered with etc

I am in the lucky position of having the opportunity to try different materials, both on mouthpieces (different resins) and necks (different alloys and shapes).
I also have some good musicians around that sometimes accept to try different necks for me, as part of the ongoing Sequoia improvements.
The interesting thing is that the way a material behaves makes you playing differently. Tiny possible differences in the shape of my necks would not justify differences in tuning, but some musicians find the more resistant materials play flatter. I have a similar thing every time I try silver pieces or instruments: they seem to be "somewhere else". It probably has nothing to do with standing waves, but with the way I adjust my embouchure to the instrument.
Two necks that sound very similar played by me, are different beasts played by other musicians.
And a common thing is that almost everyone prefers playing the 65% brass but the 85% sounds much better from the listener's point of view.

To be precise, I am tempted to say that different materials don't sound different, but allow you to play differently.
Of course practice can overcome these differences, but researching is part of the fun.
 
I'm of the opinion if it feels better, you play differently. When it's right there's some sort of connection and you can do no wrong. I play outside a lot. Moving six feet on a street can affect the sound almost as much as the weather. I won't play if it's too hot or if it's raining. I often change the reed if the money stops or is slow and it never ceases to surprise me that although I couldn't detect any difference, the money says different. I think some players have such a strong personality and flexibility in their embouchure that they adapt and sound the same, whereas others find a little help goes a long way.

When was music ever appreciated empirically. Some of the best and moving experiences aren't even in tune lol

I think you may well be putting too much down to your playing in this pennies in the box thing and not enough in that's just the way it is in the world, I have spent may years sitting on taxi ranks waiting for work and have realised that sometimes there is a steady stream of punters getting cabs and other times everybody sits there doing nothing and then then there is a rush and the whole rank of cabs is taken, maybe ten or twelve cabs all at once and then there's the sit about and wait for the next rush, to me it's all about the ebb and flow of the world, and in your playing situation more likely to be the people that happen to be walking by at that particular time than your playing ......John
 
In this world I would never rule out anything and unfortunately we don't seem to get many Italian taxi drivers with red horns in the mirror round Manchester but I would always agree with Colin that when something feels right it always becomes much easier just like finding that sweet reed makes all the difference but wether it affects pennies in the box is another matter ......John
 
A lot of wasted time can be had sitting thinking about such things as material vs etc etc, lac vs no lac etc etc. I'd rather be just blowing my gear which I know feels/plays great. After all that's what I enjoy the most, playing the horn.
 
I replaced my serie II clone silver neck with a cheap generic brass one and the sax has been transformed into a Great horn. I did also give the whole thing a thorough set-up and re-felt/cork 🙂

Re mouthpiece material.Comfort springs to mind.I played a stainless berg for about 12 years and never liked the feel or taste of it in my gob ever. Now Silver to me would be warmer I feel, ( thinking the best Cutlery here ) Perhaps one of the things we never discuss is the fact that the Sax mouthpiece is placed in an area of the body which is actually classed as Erogenous, Yerp. I`m sure we have enough epicures amongst us to agree that the Mouth is a complex sensual area and that the tongue is in fact a mass of sensory cells which may also evaluate vibration/ touch as well as taste . Anyway I`ve got a hunch that any feature of a mouthpiece that makes it more enjoyable to play on would probably improve the players perception of the experience and perhaps also their performance.
 

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