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Saxophones Julius Keilwerth Tenor on eBay - Anyone recognise the model?

kevgermany

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Looks to me like a post war one, made by Amati. Took some time for Keilwerth to get Amati to stop using the Keilwerth name. Únderstandable in some ways, cos the Keilwerth factory in Cz was nationalised post WWII, while the family moved to W Germany in stages.
 

DavidUK

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Looks to me like a post war one, made by Amati. Took some time for Keilwerth to get Amati to stop using the Keilwerth name. Únderstandable in some ways, cos the Keilwerth factory in Cz was nationalised post WWII, while the family moved to W Germany in stages.

Thanks Kev. Interest ended.

;}
 

kevgermany

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Funny thing is, later on JK sourced their student models from Amati... But I don't think this is one of them.
 

helen

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Looks to me like a post war one, made by Amati.

I'm not so sure. Amati used the Toneking name, and that's what JK went to court over and eventually won. In 1955, the European Court of Justice in The Haag ruled that Julius Keilwerth was the only one who could legally use the Toneking name.

This eBay sax doesn't bear the Toneking name at all--at least not that we can see. It also doesn't look like the Amati Tonekings that we usually see on eBay and the likes. They usually have rolled tone holes, while this one appears to have bevelled ones (like Martin).

Exactly what this JK is though, is a bit of a mystery. Without a serial # we can't be sure of its manufacturing date. The wire cage key guards and lack of rolled tone holes however, would likely indicate that it is a Graslitz era horn. But even that doesn't quite feel right. If I were interested in it, I'd ask for the serial number, and see if I could figure out more about it based on manufacturing date.
 

kevgermany

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I'm not so sure. Amati used the Toneking name, and that's what JK went to court over and eventually won. In 1955, the European Court of Justice in The Haag ruled that Julius Keilwerth was the only one who could legally use the Toneking name.

This eBay sax doesn't bear the Toneking name at all--at least not that we can see. It also doesn't look like the Amati Tonekings that we usually see on eBay and the likes. They usually have rolled tone holes, while this one appears to have bevelled ones (like Martin).

Exactly what this JK is though, is a bit of a mystery. Without a serial # we can't be sure of its manufacturing date. The wire cage key guards and lack of rolled tone holes however, would likely indicate that it is a Graslitz era horn. But even that doesn't quite feel right. If I were interested in it, I'd ask for the serial number, and see if I could figure out more about it based on manufacturing date.

I'm sure you're right.
 

DavidUK

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I'm not so sure. Amati used the Toneking name, and that's what JK went to court over and eventually won. In 1955, the European Court of Justice in The Haag ruled that Julius Keilwerth was the only one who could legally use the Toneking name.

This eBay sax doesn't bear the Toneking name at all--at least not that we can see. It also doesn't look like the Amati Tonekings that we usually see on eBay and the likes. They usually have rolled tone holes, while this one appears to have bevelled ones (like Martin).

Exactly what this JK is though, is a bit of a mystery. Without a serial # we can't be sure of its manufacturing date. The wire cage key guards and lack of rolled tone holes however, would likely indicate that it is a Graslitz era horn. But even that doesn't quite feel right. If I were interested in it, I'd ask for the serial number, and see if I could figure out more about it based on manufacturing date.
I asked the seller for the s/n earlier. No reply yet. Will post whatever info he supplies, as I won't be bidding. Just an "interest" item for me.

Bevelled tone holes?
 

kevgermany

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There were some very early post war JK saxes from W Germany that had soldered & bevelled tone holes, but not many.

Bevelled - the walls of the relatively thick tone hole chimney are beveled at the top to give a thinner contact area with the pad. These toneholes are soldered on. And that can be seen in the pics. On second look, I agree with Helen that it has bevelled tone holes. Could be worth keeping an eye on.
 

DavidUK

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There were some very early post war JK saxes from W Germany that had soldered & bevelled tone holes, but not many.

Bevelled - the walls of the relatively thick tone hole chimney are beveled at the top to give a thinner contact area with the pad. These toneholes are soldered on. And that can be seen in the pics. On second look, I agree with Helen that it has bevelled tone holes. Could be worth keeping an eye on.

Sorry, I'd missed Helen's comment. I was just querying IF they were bevelled, not what bevelled is.

Having said that, why would you want a smaller contact area with the pads? Less stickiness?
 

kevgermany

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Sorry, I'd missed Helen's comment. I was just querying IF they were bevelled, not what bevelled is.

Having said that, why would you want a smaller contact area with the pads? Less stickiness?

It increases the pressure of the pad on the tonehole. Some say it seals better cos of the higher contact pressure, others that wider contact areas like the rolled toneholes found on many prewar saxes work better. I don'T know if there was ever a definitive answer, more likely cost of production won.
 

thomsax

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I've seen some late "Martin" stamped saxes like this one. Did Keilwerth "soft" solder on thier toneholes? I have tried to silver solder on Martin Comm III toneholes. It's not easy. The sax/tube was complete clean so the first thing to be solder on was the toneholes. I guess the thick Martin solder-on toneholes were meant to be soldered on with lower temp!? According to persons in music industry the soldered toneholes à la Martin gave the sax a differnt tobe beause it has a different angle (connetion to the tube than a silver solderd sax like King Super 20) than other saxes. One of the secrets of the Martin sound?
 

helen

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There were some very early post war JK saxes from W Germany that had soldered & bevelled tone holes, but not many.

True, but their bell keys were left-sided. This horn has right-sided bell keys, which is why I'm saying Graslitz.

If anyone's interested, here is the link to the JK section of my website. It's broken down into Graslitz & Nauheim pages. You'll find pics there illustrating everything mentioned so far in this thread.... Well almost everything. This mystery horn from eBay doesn't quite fit into the picture...:confused2:
 

kevgermany

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What worries me about Graslitz is the engraving. Looks too late. And I think all the tone holes from there were rolled. Wish we had more photos and a serial umber.
 

helen

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What worries me about Graslitz is the engraving. Looks too late. And I think all the tone holes from there were rolled. Wish we had more photos and a serial umber.

The engraving does look different than other Graslitz-produced horns. But check it out compared to this King model that Gerhard Keilwerth sold a few years ago. Sadly there's no serial # for this tenor either, but it has right-sided bell keys, with the same wire key guards. And check out it's tone holes: soldered, but they don't look bevelled to me from the pics that he provided for the eBay sale.

JK was making some small production run horns during their King model period. For example, they made the Modell Lus (a sub-model of the King), which were quite different, and very fancy. All the ones I've come across so far had bevelled tone holes. In tenor 20380, the bevelled tone holes are quite visible. Just as important, its serial # would indicate that it was built shortly after the company started up operations in Nauheim. So therefore I would have to revise my original thoughts about this being a Graslitz-built horn, and agree with Kev that it was an early Nauheim. The oddity is still that it doesn't have a model name engraved.
 

DavidUK

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Look at the 8th/9th big photos down the ebay page. Look like bevelled to me?

:confused:
 

thomsax

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Yes, they looks bevelled. "The Martin" saxes were inspiation for Yanagisaxwa as well (T3?). IMO, there were just three manufactors that had something new/modern and thier own identity after WW II: Selmer, Martin and King (H.N. White). Keilwerth did someting like "The Martin" neck in the 50´s. The patent belonged to Joseph Gillespie, one of the members in committee that constructed and developed Marin Committe saxes.
 

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