Is this correct...

[Ron123]

Hello

Is this correct? A Cmaj7 chord comes from the scale of C major built from the Ionian mode. On the other hand a C7 chord is derived from the Mixolydian mode of the F major scale. If this is correct does this suggest if you want to improvise around a C7 chord you can use the Fmajor scale?

Ron

 

[Nick Wyver]

Yes. But try not to think about it as an F major scale. Better to think of a C major scale with a flat 7.

 

[Ron123]

Yes. But try not to think about it as an F major scale. Better to think of a C major scale with a flat 7.

Thank you for your reply.

So should I forget about improvising around the F major scale. Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, this is what I find confusing!

Ron

 

[Nick Wyver]

The point is all about the important notes. The notes that best fit the chord. Although the scales are the same the important notes when playing over a C7 chord are C E G Bb. When playing over an F major chord they are F A C E.
It might be helpful to just think of it as a group of notes with one of them flattened.
Most people find this confusing at first.

 

[Ron123]

The point is all about the important notes. The notes that best fit the chord. Although the scales are the same the important notes when playing over a C7 chord are C E G Bb. When playing over an F major chord they are F A C E.
It might be helpful to just think of it as a group of notes with one of them flattened.
Most people find this confusing at first.

Thank you I think I'm getting there?

Ron

 

[MandyH]

Hello

Is this correct? A Cmaj7 chord comes from the scale of C major built from the Ionian mode. On the other hand a C7 chord is derived from the Mixolydian mode of the F major scale. If this is correct does this suggest if you want to improvise around a C7 chord you can use the Fmajor scale?

Ron

From the way I was taught modes, my answer would be No!
C7 is from the mixolydian mode of C, which has a flattened 7th.
So C major (Ionian) is C D E F G A B C
giving Cmaj7 as C E G B
C mixolydian is C D E F G A Bb C
giving C7 as C E G Bb.

Remember that a chord with the chord name C will always have C as the note centre, so it's important to focus your improvising around that fact (not around F as you are suggesting in this case)

 

[Ron123]

From the way I was taught modes, my answer would be No!
C7 is from the mixolydian mode of C, which has a flattened 7th.
So C major (Ionian) is C D E F G A B C
giving Cmaj7 as C E G B
C mixolydian is C D E F G A Bb C
giving C7 as C E G Bb.

Remember that a chord with the chord name C will always have C as the note centre, so it's important to focus your improvising around that fact (not around F as you are suggesting in this case)

Hello MandyH

Thank you for your reply. This is where I get confused, I thought C Mixolydian was derived from the fifth degree of F major and that is why the Bb makes up the C7 because
F has the Bb in it's scale? and therefore I assumed I should improvise around the F major scale over a C7!? Back to the drawing board for me!!!

Ron

 

[MandyH]

C mixolydian has the same notes in it as F Ionian, but it is important to remember that C mixolydian is based on C (with G at it's 5th note, the dominant note)
F Ionian is based on F, with C as the 5th note, therefore it sounds different.
If you played the scale of C mixolydian it will sound different to the scale of F Ionian - same notes, but a different sound.

 

[Young Col]

It doesn't help that in more classically based music, including the way that ABRSM set it out, C7 is known by the theoretically(?) correct name Dominant 7th in F. And for example D7 is Dominant 7th in G, A7 is Dominant 7th in D...and so on. Much easier to think in the key you are in.

 

[MandyH]

If you can find the time, this MOOC : https://www.coursera.org/course/improvisation
Might help you understand modes. Gary Burton describes the modes exactly as I have been taught them. Even if you don't complete the peer reviewed assignments, the video course is well worth watching and following.

 

[Ron123]

If you can find the time, this MOOC : https://www.coursera.org/course/improvisation
Might help you understand modes. Gary Burton describes the modes exactly as I have been taught them. Even if you don't complete the peer reviewed assignments, the video course is well worth watching and following.

Hello MandyH

Thank you for the link, I've signed up for the course. It starts Feb. 2
Ron

 

[Jay]

Hello MandyH

Thank you for the link, I've signed up for the course. It starts Feb. 2
Ron

Hi Ron, I think I'm going to do the course too

 

[Pete Thomas]

This can be a lot simpler.

C maj7 ( C E G B) is indeed a chord you can derive from the C major scale. C D E F G A B

C7 (C E G Bb) is a chord you can derive from the F major scale.. F G A Bb C D E

Thinking about modes in this regard is totally irrelevant and overcomplicates the issue.

 

[Ron123]

This can be a lot simpler.

C maj7 ( C E G B) is indeed a chord you can derive from the C major scale. C D E F G A B

C7 (C E G Bb) is a chord you can derive from the F major scale.. F G A Bb C D E

Thinking about modes in this regard is totally irrelevant and overcomplicates the issue.

Thank you Pete for the information. Dare I ask, would you then just improvise around the C major scale and keep well away from the F major scale over C7?

Ron

 

[Ron123]

Hi Ron, I think I'm going to do the course too

That's great Jay. So does this mean any hard questions I can get help from you ????

Ron

 

[fibracell]

Dare I ask, would you then just improvise around the C major scale and keep well away from the F major scale over C7?

No ! just forget about modes etc. Think C7 as C major scale with a Bb instead of B.

Also think of C7 as C E G and Bb and then add the other (passing) notes D F and A.

It really helps if you can get someone to play the chord on a key board while you play the chord tones and then the chord tones with the added scale notes - to get the sound of it in your head.

 

[Jay]

That's great Jay. So does this mean any hard questions I can get help from you ????

Ron

Ha, no, it means there will be two of us puzzled together 😛

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thank you Pete for the information. Dare I ask, would you then just improvise around the C major scale and keep well away from the F major scale over C7?

Ron

No, I would not use a C major scale on C7. C7 is a chord in the key of F major or F minor. So depending on whether the key is major or minor I would first of all think about F major of F minor scales in association with C7. (see my post above)

Unless it is a blues, in which case things are different, but I would still not think C major scale has anything to do with C7, as C7 has a Bb in it and C major has a B natural.

 

[Chris]

Ron only when you have a good grasp of Maj and Min Keys should you venture into the world of modes. They only cause confusion. Better sticking to chord tones to begin with. For most western music unless it is a modal tune or blues then they( chord tones) will get you where you want to go to start with..

 

[jbtsax]

The problem for me of thinking of the F major scale while improvising over a C7 is that even though it has the same scale tones as the C major scale with a flatted fifth (Bb) it would "encourage" the use of the note F natural which is quite dissonant against that chord. The F natural (along with the A) is also a resolution to the "tension" set-up by the "tritone" Bb - E in the C7 dominant chord, so throwing the "resolution" note into the mix of the "tension" of the dominant 7th chord sort of defeats the purpose.