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Saxophones Is it possible to get a prototype (or abandoned idea) saxophone shopping online?

TenderLambs

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I am wondering about this---per tons of vintage stencil names that some companies have done, and rare info on some of them, per serial number and/or lack of other information about it anywhere. For those who do a lot of research, what do you conclude when one or more you have searched for are void of much (or no specific--for that particular instrument) information? Although, one could make a logical conclusion what known company it came from. Had does one assess if it could be something like that? Or should we assume perhaps that some saxophones might just simply not have been made known online especially if made in other countries, like in Europe? I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Thank you so much.
 
There are lots of people who are familiar with the layout/design of most of the major makers, and some of the smaller ones too. Stencils are not specially made. They are usually an average or cheaper production horn that's simply given the name of the customer's company, or their brand. This isn't at all rare and probably more common today with various Asian makers putting on brand names like Trevor James, Barone, Cannonball, Kessler, and dozens more.

If you're asking about a specific horn then posting pictures of it here might get a response from some of the more knowledgeable types (I'm not really one of them).
 
We see quite a few queries about stencils, that range from easily identifiable to being a bit of a mystery. I'm sure compaies with some old failed prototype hanging around in a cormner are happy to make a few bob on making it a stencil.

We can look for obvious markers, soldered on bevelled toneholes point to Martin, rolled tone holes may initially suggest Conn but I've seen exampes Eurpean companies that manufactured withy rolled tone holes and some copies of the Conn features such as 10M pinky table, trouser guards and engraving style. So copy or stencil is often difficult to pin down.

Others more knowledgeable than will be along soon....
 
If I see one I don't recognise, and there's no resource available to identify it i.e. no similar horn has ever been seen, I'm more likely to be put off it than enamoured by it's rarity. With nothing to go by it's impossible to know how it'll play or sound and the liklihood is it's probably duff if they didn't make a load more of them.

The exceptions are something that's extraordinarily cheap, or it's near enough to be able to pop round and see it in the flesh.

I spotted a TJ Raw "Prototype" the other day. I think it was £1,250. No provenance, no identifying marks, so it's priced well over the top even if it IS what is purports to be. But then again, if it played like a Raw, or better (unlikely) someone may like it. But what happens when you come to sell it on?

Rare can mean priceless for well reported well regarded horns, but for unknowns it generally equals peanuts.
 
Thanks so very kindly for your thoughts on this...Wade Cornell, Pete Thomas and DavidUK. I really appreciate it. Thanks.
Although this question has been on my mind for saxophones, especially discovering how many stencils were made, exploring the possibility, it is true that I am acquiring a tenor saxophone that has me quite intrigued. I took a chance on it. So, I'll try to post photos of it on a new topic. I ask about prototypes and such possibilities, because like years ago, if a spouse comes home with a new prototype to test it out, I can perceive just how many things like this could be out there, even things like a sub-harmonic processor, etc.
Another question...if a saxophone has some old fashioned, even slightly elaborate, engraving on it, have people attempted to copy that decades ago and make clones, and try to sell it in other countries? I have not seen discussions on this topic, but I have seen where the brand design is very simplified, more or less just the name and in a different style. I have never thought of that before, but I have read where machinery has been bought out by other companies, and where they end up decades later...is the question. I do not know if that was also a trend decades ago, that is, to engrave designs on the horn around the name, if making clones. But I have seen an old photo online of people sitting at tables hand engraving, but I do not know what is involved to make one after another and have the same look without jigs, patterns, and so forth...unless they were given liberty to free form it.
 
Sorry man ;I'm a bit lost..
I think you've ordered a tenorsax that is a stencil ?
I have no idea if it's a brand new horn or vintage?
If the former it depends on who you speak to . Some are very forthcoming..." it's Tai made from factory ? "...others keep it a closely guarded secret....others just lie...
I'm possibly totally on the wrong track here so am gonna leave it :
I am however intrigued as to what will be forthcoming...
 
This is what I have learned from other sax folks. There is new information coming all the time, so it can be wrong. A stencil sax is a sax that was made by a manufactor for another company/brandholder/shop.... . Most of the stencils were made in a way so they wouldn't compete with the manufactors top of the line models. They often sold an older model, but they could be really fancy instruments. Silver and goldplated, mother of pearls key touches, fancy engravings ...... Maybe more lookers than players? The american manufactors stencilled a lot. Even the european manufactors but they didn't have the capacity. Both Buescher and Conn had the machine that could pull out the toneholes. Haynes patent. Martin had softsoldered on toneholes, King and Holton silver brazed toneholes. In the late 20's or early 30's the one-millionth sax was built over 800 000 of the saxes were made in USA. On the other side it just took Yamaha c 20 years (c 1970-1991) to make five million wind instrument and many of these were saxes!!!!! Second line saxes were saxes that often were made for another compny thats owned and controlled by the parent company. Conn was just a brand. C.G. Conn sold his company in 1915. Secondline saxes were made out of old inventory and old tools. Indiana Band Instrument Company made Indiana and Martin, H.N. White made King Super 20, King Zephyr and Clevland, American Standard and Gladiator ...... . Many trademarks and patent ruled the saxophone manufactoring.
 
As others have written, there are certain features of vintage saxes that can identify the maker. As you know, there are very many stencil names (especially from the golden age of saxophone manufacture), and it is almost certain that not all of them are known. If you have such a sax please post photos, and I'm sure someone will be able to help.
 
Still lost but reading between the lines its either an old stencil or a reproduction made on original machinery...the plot thickens . The important thing is no matter what it might or might not be ; whether and how it plays...
 
@TenderLambs - will you post some photos so we can have a look? No need to start a new thread, this one has the full story so it's more relevant here.

:thumb:
 
@DavidUK : good afternoon sir ; how's your day thus far...
My pop was a wildlife illustrator ; I wondered who did your avatar ? Watercolour I think....very nice..
 
Thanks so very kindly for your comments on this...Adrian63, thomsax, stitch, DavidUK . I really appreciate it. Thanks. My quest is also about the La Sete tenor. There is some information and photos on this forum about the La Sete, but the one I am getting is apparently unique to what I see online...does not say PROFESSIONAL capitalized, that is, not engraved under La Sete, does not have rolled key holes, seems to have a serial number much later than what I have seen online for the Professional, if a true Keilwerth it might have been made in the 1970's ?? that is if they were dating all instruments sequentially and if it is one, has some different parts, does say MADE IN GERMANY with serial number below it, no JK logo there above, but still in various ways overall looks similar, but somehow some variances, I think. I have not seen this up close and personal, so I guess I should wait for it in order to see more of what I actually have.
 
La Sete Tenor Saxophone Vintage Photo 8.jpg
 
Also, I discovered some very helpful information per a website-- but yesterday, I think when I tried to post this, I messed up everything trying to post a link (and a photo and what I wrote). I'm sorry, I did not realize that was a no no. But under Wikipedia, look up
Nauheim
and scroll down a little ways to see about the saxophone story there, and there is some detail on what happened and this instrument I believe is part of the reason why it might be a mystery instrument, maybe??? Or maybe a thought/idea/possibility to produce them again, or ? Or was a stencil for a brief period? A vast search on the internet did not help me to find that there was an attempt to make more later by Keilwerth instead of Dörfler & Jörka which actually or possibly existed way before this one was made (apparently they (D&J) only made rolled tone holes). Or perhaps this was another scenario.
 
Nice sax! I don't know about "La Sete" name/brand. For some month ago ther was a La Sete for sale here in Sweden based on the Keilwerth with alcrylic keygaurds. The model before yours. I have a "New King" (series IV) that looks like your "La Sete". Also without rolled toneholes. If you compare the bow to another sax from that time you will see that the bow is wider on these Keilwerths. A forerunner to the wide bow Keilwerths that are still manufactored. I like the big sound of a wide bow Keilwerth!!!

I asked Gerhard Keilwerth, Nauheim, aboth two "Keilwerths" I own. Over ten years ago before Gehard Keilwerth passed away. I also had some doubt if my saxes were made by Keilwerth in Nauheim or another firm in Germany. The are stamped with "Made Germany". The alto is a Wikenna" with a trademark stamped below rh thumbrest. The "New King" is just stamped with "Made in Germany". On the other side my Dörfler & Jörka (Nauheim) stencil from 1963 is stamped with "Made In Western Germany". Keilwerth made most of the bodies for D&J. D&J made the keys and necks. Gerhard Keiwerth informed that both my "Keilwerths were made at Keilwerths factory in Nauheim. The "New King" (series IV) was Keilwerths intermediate model in the late 60's. The beginner sax was an Amati. And the the professional models were "Tone King". Both the "New King" and "Tone King" shared the body and neck. Tone King had rolled toneholes, The COUF Superba I&II stencils wer made by Keilwerth, Naheim, for W.T. Armstrong company in Elkhart, USA. I think Herb Couf was at first a shopowner that later became president of Armstrong company.

The "New King" #60XXX tenor, 1967/1968.
tnkincase2.jpg

"Wikenna" alto 25XXX, c 1956. Notice the "combined neck" style. The combined neck was a patent from 1947 that belonged to Martin. It was running for 50 years. And to be found 9 years later on a German sax !?!?!?! Rolled toneholes and a good sax, but not as good as the Tone King model.
wikena 008.jpg
 
The info on my "Diamond" made by Dörfler & Jörka (c 1963) för Eric Pettersson company, Stockholm, Sweden.
diamond id.jpg
 
Have a look at this:
IMG_3856.JPG

IMG_3858.JPG

IMG_3859.JPG


It's exactly the same as my (ex) Bundy Special alto: they were made by Keilwerth (New King IV?).
The diamond shaped key posts point to Keilwerth, if they look more like bowling pins then it's a D&J.
 
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It's exactly the same as my (ex) Bundy Special alto: they were made by Keilwerth (New King IV?).
Agreed. It's also the same as my Evette Schaeffer Master alto, confirmed by KW as being made by the company (in 1968 I think?). I pretty sure I've seen La Sete (no "Professional") in lists of KW stencils.
The lack of RTH and "Best in the World" is not significant.
 

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