Tone Is growling easier on a freer blowing sax such as the Yamaha Custom Z?

E

eb424

Well-Known Member
3,691
london
As you may know my current tenors are a TJRaw and a 1952 conn 10m. Ive had a few issues with the raw and was looking at the custom z ( used) as my mates plays a treat.

Tried one out and was in the shop for several hours comparing the 2. Same mouthpiece, gaia 8 with a 2.5 legere sig..I couldn't decide between the 2.

Yam seemed an easier blow, more focused, brighter and louder..I felt the Raw had more bottom end and a bit of resistance which gave it a darker tone.

My question is would techniques such as growling be easier to learn on a freer blowing sax such as the z: Or does this just come with time? Would there be a major difference in someone who has only been playing for 4-5 years between the z and a mk1 62 with a g neck?.. Thanks as always..
Eddie
 
Even after 40 years of playing tenor I rather doubt I would find any important or lasting difference between two top line Yamaha tenors. Yeah, right there in the music store I might sense something subtle, but take the horn out of the store and play it for several months and that stuff will almost certainly die away.

What are the "some issues" with your current instrument?
 
Growling has nothing to do with saxophone or mouthpiece. Just say Grrr while you're playing. That's why it's called growling.
Comparing saxophones with the same mouthpiece and reed gives a limited impression of what's what. Different horns have different relationships with different mouthpieces. A dark mouthpiece on a bright horn will feel different to a dark mouthpiece on a dark horn. etc.

Lately I've been looking for a mouthpiece for my alto. I found one that sounded great in the music room and recorded pleasingly with backing tracks. However when I took it to a jam night to try with a live band it was a screamer. Bright, edgy and piercing. I'd taken two horns and two mouthpieces to try out. The other was darker, a little stuffy and muffled in the music room. It played sweetly and effortlessly and blended just right in the larger room with the band.

Where and who with, will be a big influence on your final choice of instruments. You have two fine horns. More practice and patience is where you should be focusing your efforts at the present time while absorbing theory at your own pace.

However...if you fancy a new horn and you can afford it, buy it. It won't make you a more accomplished player but they do look nice all lined up on their stands. 😉
 
Colin the Bear said:
Growling has nothing to do with saxophone or mouthpiece. Just say Grrr while you're playing. That's why it's called growling.
Comparing saxophones with the same mouthpiece and reed gives a limited impression of what's what. Different horns have different relationships with different mouthpieces. A dark mouthpiece on a bright horn will feel different to a dark mouthpiece on a dark horn. etc.

Lately I've been looking for a mouthpiece for my alto. I found one that sounded great in the music room and recorded pleasingly with backing tracks. However when I took it to a jam night to try with a live band it was a screamer. Bright, edgy and piercing. I'd taken two horns and two mouthpieces to try out. The other was darker, a little stuffy and muffled in the music room. It played sweetly and effortlessly and blended just right in the larger room with the band.

Where and who with, will be a big influence on your final choice of instruments. You have two fine horns. More practice and patience is where you should be focusing your efforts at the present time while absorbing theory at your own pace.

However...if you fancy a new horn and you can afford it, buy it. It won't make you a more accomplished player but they do look nice all lined up on their stands. 😉
Click to expand...
Completely agree with you @Colin the Bear and know how you feel re mouthpieces. Mine seem to sound different indoors, caravan and church hall. Cant play the Durga at home but its sweet in the hall...i dont want loads of saxes 2 tenors 2 many got an alto ( thats different lol). My mate who plays the z tried mine and said he had 2 work twice as heard breathwise..I believe its the resistance that gives a nice tone..
 
Colin the Bear said:
I'm recalling a scene from "the big bang theory" when Sheldon was asked something by a new member of the group. The response was "Nooooooooo!"
Click to expand...
Pmsl.. they were nothing that couldnt be sorted..I tried the z out of curiosity while the tech sorted mine...it seemed easier blowing so was just wondering if technique would be easier to learn...
 
eb424 said:
My question is would techniques such as growling be easier to learn on a freer blowing sax such as the z: Or does this just come with time?
Click to expand...
Do you need some suggestions about how to "growl"? As stated, the m/p and horn does not make a difference but your approach to the growl technique might make it easy or a little more difficult if you are new at it.
 
Pick a horn - any horn - and commit.

Your ability to express yourself comes with time spent with a horn in your face. And no, it's not just the quantity of time, but its quality. Always listen to what comes out of your horn. Does it match what you hear BEFORE you blow? No? What can you do to change that? Adjustments in embouchure, airstream, tongue position, support, etc. The sound comes from YOU.
 
Dr G said:
Pick a horn - any horn - and commit.

Your ability to express yourself comes with time spent with a horn in your face. And no, it's not just the quantity of time, but its quality. Always listen to what comes out of your horn. Does it match what you hear BEFORE you blow? No? What can you do to change that? Adjustments in embouchure, airstream, tongue position, support, etc. The sound comes from YOU.
Click to expand...
Hmm the mouthpieces make quite a bit of difference surely. The Durga plays really bright and the Gaia darker and the Phil tone really dark and quiet..Different horses for courses and venues..Philtone at home, gaia in the van and Durga for the church hall. TBF i have resisted temptation to play the conn and have only played the Raw since I got it... 14 months...I get on fine with it can play it well but was just wondering if a freer blowing sax makes technique easier...TBF the guy I play with has played for fourty years and he said Im working harder on the Raw...it must be harder to impose yourself on the sax if its resistant but its that resistance that gives it the tone I like...
 
John Laughter said:
Do you need some suggestions about how to "growl"? As stated, the m/p and horn does not make a difference but your approach to the growl technique might make it easy or a little more difficult if you are new at it.
Click to expand...
I'm struggling to see how a sax and neck cant make a difference,..... not being argumentative or unappreciative of advice but surely a sax with more resistance would be harder to achieve a growl (or any other technique on) if you are just starting out with technique...I think Yamaha make different necks with different levels of resistance...I may be well of the mark tho....
 
eb424 said:
Hmm the mouthpieces make quite a bit of difference surely. The Durga plays really bright and the Gaia darker and the Phil tone really dark and quiet..Different horses for courses and venues..Philtone at home, gaia in the van and Durga for the church hall. TBF i have resisted temptation to play the conn and have only played the Raw since I got it... 14 months...I get on fine with it can play it well but was just wondering if a freer blowing sax makes technique easier...TBF the guy I play with has played for fourty years and he said Im working harder on the Raw...it must be harder to impose yourself on the sax if its resistant but its that resistance that gives it the tone I like...
Click to expand...

Rather than pick the best trick that each mouthpiece performs, consider where they overlap. Stick with ONE mouthpiece and change what YOU do to make the mouthpiece fit the need. Need less volume and edge at home - adjust your airstream and embouchure to reign in the Durga. Need more volume from your Phil-Tone - open your throat and increase your support. I have played dance bands with a classical setup (Morgan 6C .090") and rehearsed with my classical quartet on my Lamberson J8 .120. Yes, I had to learn to manage my air to fill a room with a classical piece. Blending with my quartet was the hardest I have ever worked, but no one knew what I was doing at the time so I was very happy with the experiment. I wouldn't do the .120" ever again with a classical quartet, but it is good to know that I can. I have since re-evaluated my needs and dialed in my tenor setup to a Phil-Tone Intrepid 7* (.105) for enhanced articulation and an expanded range of timbre, while maintaining a wide range of dynamics (my horn is a Borgani Jubilee OBT).

Bottom line: Find the mouthpiece that best covers the most of your needs, then fill in the gaps with control. If you keep switching mouthpieces to make life easier, you'll never be driven to get the most from your horn and yourself, nor will you expand the limits of your expression.
 
Dr G said:
Rather than pick the best trick that each mouthpiece performs, consider where they overlap. Stick with ONE mouthpiece and change what YOU do to make the mouthpiece fit the need. Need less volume and edge at home - adjust your airstream and embouchure to reign in the Durga. Need more volume from your Phil-Tone - open your throat and increase your support. I have played dance bands with a classical setup (Morgan 6C .090") and rehearsed with my classical quartet on my Lamberson J8 .120. Yes, I had to learn to manage my air to fill a room with a classical piece. Blending with my quartet was the hardest I have ever worked, but no one knew what I was doing at the time so I was very happy with the experiment. I wouldn't do the .120" ever again with a classical quartet, but it is good to know that I can. I have since re-evaluated my needs and dialed in my tenor setup to a Phil-Tone Intrepid 7* (.105) for enhanced articulation and an expanded range of timbre, while maintaining a wide range of dynamics (my horn is a Borgani Jubilee OBT).

Bottom line: Find the mouthpiece that best covers the most of your needs, then fill in the gaps with control. If you keep switching mouthpieces to make life easier, you'll never be driven to get the most from your horn and yourself, nor will you expand the limits of your expression.
Click to expand...
Fantastic @Dr G great advice as usual..🙂..There all fairly new pieces i play the Gaia mainly as it fits all three venues..
 
eb424 said:
I'm struggling to see how a sax and neck cant make a difference,..... not being argumentative or unappreciative of advice but surely a sax with more resistance would be harder to achieve a growl (or any other technique on) if you are just starting out with technique...I think Yamaha make different necks with different levels of resistance...I may be well of the mark tho....
Click to expand...

Not really, like several others mentioned, it is your humming along that makes the difference and the resistance of the horn hardly plays into it - I have never found a difference switching between different setups and there are a few songs where you actually need to growl so I am doing it quite a bit.

As to whether you are humming along with the melody, which is the easiest to control but somewhat less efficient or you hum the second voice (my favorite but you need to know what you are playing) or simply doing the bear growl described by @Colin the Bear, is not only a matter of preference but also a matter of nuancing the effect.

As an example, a few weeks ago I was sitting in at a blues jam and they decided to play "Start it up" by Robben Ford. For reasons that would be off topic I didn't feel like playing a "nice" solo but instead resorted to growling => emulating the sound of revving up the engine in chromatic steps. That was a situation where I had to resolve to an extreme growl, like humming + Grrrrr and it worked out really well but it really wouldn't matter if I had a different setup. Just be aware that this will put a lot of strain on your throat and keep it short, have some Ricola ready for afterwards.
 
A nice milky coffee seems to lubricate the growly bits for me. Probably more of a phlegmy bubble than a growl.

A set up that needs the least amount of player input is what I'm looking for.
 
eb424 said:
My question is would techniques such as growling be easier to learn on a freer blowing sax such as the z: Or does this just come with time? Would there be a major difference in someone who has only been playing for 4-5 years between the z and a mk1 62 with a g neck?.. Thanks as always..
Click to expand...
When I growled I didn't want it to be "easy and freeblowing". I used the growl when I wanted to give some tones to words like "anger", "wild", "pushing", "screaming", ........ . Unleash the animal inside of you. I did my best growls at jams. Not at home sitting in the chair. The mouthpiece and the saxophone matters. My Rovner Deep-V D40 (high baffle) # 10 (.130") tenor mpc with hard # 4 (# 5 is/was out of production) plasticover baritone reeds on my Martin Committee saxes was my thing. I decided that's was the right set-up for me. I stopped seaching and started to paracice a lot. In tune or out of tune? I didn't care so much. I thought I had a personal and ok sound and I enjoyed it. My fellow musicians also thought it was great. And the few guys that came to listen also thought it was good. We all like a fighter that is trying. And it hursts as well. Teeth, lips and throat can hurt a little bit after a good seance. " Keep On Honkin' " .
 
thomsax said:
When I growled I didn't want it to be "easy and freeblowing". I used the growl when I wanted to give some tones to words like "anger", "wild", "pushing", "screaming", ........ . Unleash the animal inside of you. I did my best growls at jams. Not at home sitting in the chair. The mouthpiece and the saxophone matters. My Rovner Deep-V D40 (high baffle) # 10 (.130") tenor mpc with hard # 4 (# 5 is/was out of production) plasticover baritone reeds on my Martin Committee saxes was my thing. I decided that's was the right set-up for me. I stopped seaching and started to paracice a lot. In tune or out of tune? I didn't care so much. I thought I had a personal and ok sound and I enjoyed it. My fellow musicians also thought it was great. And the few guys that came to listen also thought it was good. We all like a fighter that is trying. And it hursts as well. Teeth, lips and throat can hurt a little bit after a good seance. " Keep On Honkin' " .
Click to expand...
With that setup I expect they heard you all over Sweden, in fact I think I heard you.
 

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