Saxophones Info on Conn Baritone Saxophone

[GerryR.]

Hi All,
I'm looking some info and possible rough evaluation on my late Father's Conn Bari. He was a professional reed player and had this Conn and a Selmer Crossbar Bari which I have already posted here.
Unfortunately, at the time I could not upload any photos of the Conn. The serial number is M252334

Thanks in advance.

 

[DavidUK]

For an evaluation you need to take it to a repairer.

For a valuation, I'd say anywhere between £500 - £1500 as a very rough guide, depending on condition and playability which the evaluation can help with.

I don't recognise the model which will also help narrow down the value. What markings does it have in this respect?

 

[thomsax]

I think it's a Conn 12M "New Wonder Transitional" model from c 1932.

 

[turf3]

I'm not sure what "Transitional" really means here. No one to my knowledge has identified any acoustic changes or meaningful mechanism changes between the NW2 and the Artist (so-called "12M") models. All I've seen is the curved high E touch, moving the low B around, and engraving.

I would expect the pictured horn to play exactly like a late New Wonder and exactly like an Artist.

From the underexposed photos attached, I'd bet it's been refinished, maybe more than once; it appears to have a full complement of minor bumps and dings, one bent key (easily fixed), but not badly beat up. Low C# guard is missing, knocked off, so that area should be inspected for body damage.

 

[Hankenstine]

It doesn't have the auxiliary high F key which is another clue that it is an early 12m or so called transitional model.

These are highly regarded as one of the very best baritones.

 

[turf3]

Well, not exactly germane to the OP's question, but if he goes to sell it the question will arise, "What do I call it?"

Where is the dividing line between the New Wonder II and the Artist baritones? For alto and tenor there were any number of major acoustical and mechanical changes. I've never seen anyone claim that similar changes were applied to the baritone. When it was New Wonder:

- they didn't stamp the stock number "12M" near the SN
- the bell keys were on opposite sides
- the high E touch was flat
- and it had New Wonder type engraving on the bell

When it was Artist:

- they stamped the stock number "12M"
- they moved the low B key around, by a simple linkage
- They made the high E touch curved
- and it had the "lady face" engraving.

As far as I'm concerned, none of these really rises to the level of "new model". They're all either simple appearance things, or minor mechanical changes.

There were thousands of Artist 12Ms made before the front F key was added, so that's not an indicator.

What the OP has is with both bell keys on one side and curved high E. I don't know if the letters "12M" are stamped above the SN (but it was still the Conn internal stock number for "Eb baritone sax, low pitch". I can't tell what the engraving looks like.

To use the popular parlance, I'd not call this "transitional" I'd call it a "12M" or "Artist" model. Other than possibly one small stamping and possibly some bell engraving, it looks exactly like what we now call a "12M" baritone.

 

[Hankenstine]

If you check the serial number chart here on saxophone.org the OP's serial number (M252334 ) dates it to 1932/33.

C.G. CONN Saxophone Models | Saxophone.org

Saxophone.org - created by saxophone players for saxophone players. Features an active saxophone forum, buy sell trade your sax, saxophone museum, sax teachers and more.

www.saxophone.org

 

[turf3]

"Transitional" was not a Conn model. It was either sold as "New Wonder" or "Artist". In both cases the Conn stock number was 12M, "Baritone sax, low pitch".

As far as I can tell the only ways the OP's horn would differ from a 1945 one are:

Engraving might be different (meaningless)
It might or might not have "12M" stamped above the SN
It doesn't have the front F key, which was not added till AFTER the "New Wonder" to "Artist" changeover.

So I would advertise this as an early "Artist/12M" model.

 

[Woodpad]

If you check the serial number chart here on saxophone.org the OP's serial number (M252334 ) dates it to 1932/33.

Stohrer has a video on two bari's from the same period.
Watch the first octave pips.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t317bulDP0k

 

[thomsax]

The "4M", "6M", "10M", 12M" .... indicate that the model number and that it's a saxophone. Conn used this model id in the early 20's and the continued until Henkins bought Conn. I think "Conn 6M", "Conn 10M", "Conn 12M" were trademarks. Like "King Super 20".

So "12M" followed with M260XXX is some kind of tautology. "M" indicate that it's a Conn saxophone. "A" for cornets, "B" for trumpets, "H" for slide trombones ... .

 

[JayeNM]

It doesn't have the auxiliary high F key which is another clue that it is an early 12m or so called transitional model.

These are highly regarded as one of the very best baritones.

Yes, indeed.

My concern here...it appears to be a relacq. @GerryR. can you post a clear photo of the engraving on the bell ? If it is, value would be significantly reduced (as in by a good 250-300 quid, probably).

Completely reasonable to call it 12M or even transitional 12M in a sale ad, although I would agree the 'transitional' label has more validity when applied to the Altos and Tenors....

 

[thomsax]

Completely reasonable to call it 12M or even transitional 12M in a sale ad,

To call 12M for 12M is never wrong.

 

[JayeNM]

To call 12M for 12M is never wrong.

LOL...that's sublime, maaaaan......

 

[MKilpatrick]

"Transitional" was not a Conn model. It was either sold as "New Wonder" or "Artist". In both cases the Conn stock number was 12M, "Baritone sax, low pitch".

As far as I can tell the only ways the OP's horn would differ from a 1945 one are:

Engraving might be different (meaningless)
It might or might not have "12M" stamped above the SN
It doesn't have the front F key, which was not added till AFTER the "New Wonder" to "Artist" changeover.

So I would advertise this as an early "Artist/12M" model.

And it would have key guards around the top-F and top-E tone holes.

 

[thomsax]

So I would advertise this as an early "Artist/12M" model.

Just inform eventual buyers about what the engraved (bell) and stamped below rh thumb rest says. And of course about the condition. To bring back a baritone in good playing condition is expensive. It doesn't matter if it's an "Artist" or "New Wonder", it's roughly the same money.