support Tutorials CDs PPT mouthpieces

In for the long haul?

Andante cantabile

Senior Member
Messages
695
I have just read a review in the weekend paper of Matthew Syed's BOUNCE: How Champions Are Made. Its thesis is that champions are made through long hours of practice, even where people were born with talent for a particular vocation.

Syed appears to owe a fair bit to the psychologist Anders Ericsson who developed the thesis that 10,000 hours of practice or training are needed to become truly good at something. Music is in his view no exception.

Think about it: if you were to practice an instrument for three hours a day every day it would take you about nine years to get to level where, presumably, you might get considered for an audition with a major orchestra.

Now, most of us probably have no intention of getting to that level, but Ericsson's findings bring out clearly the long-term benefits to be obtained from consistent practice and playing.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,993
Location
Just north of Munich
It's not just skill and practice - it's what's in your head as well. There are any number of good musicians who practice a lot. Who play well. But their interpretations are.... They're usually very good in an orchestral setting, where a conductor will bring the music out, but in a less organised setting it doesn't work so well. In sport, the difference between the winners and the rest is usually what's going on in the head, not technical skill - tennis is a prime example.
 

MandyH

Sax-Mad fiend!
Subscriber
Messages
3,398
Location
The Malverns, Worcs
In sport, the difference between the winners and the rest is usually what's going on in the head, not technical skill
Agreed. My oldest daughter has now been shooting for 7 years. Finally, the head has got sorted and she got selected for team GBR. Now my husband says " if her head gets any bigger she won't get through the door" . But the self-belief is what she needs to be good at the sport. TBH in every other walk of life, she's still very reserved and wouldn't say boo to a goose. But the archery is going well :)
So now I just need to find it for the sax playing - only 5 years to go :)))
 
OP
A

Andante cantabile

Senior Member
Messages
695
I go 3-6 hrs daily!!!
That's excellent going. It reminds me that I read in the same review that Mozart had done about 3000 hours of practice by his sixth birthday. Assuming he started at about three that would work out at about three hours a day. Presumably that was on the keyboard. I suppose having Leopold Mozart as the father helped, but there cannot have been much allowance for distractions.
 

Rogerb

Member
Messages
766
Location
Costa Blanca, Spain
The important thing I think these studies have revealed is not only the HOURS of practice, but, even more important, the QUALITY of the practice which separates the sheep from the goats.
And, I guess, if you had practised 'well' for 10K hours, and had good tuition, it would be very unlikely that you'd be anything but a superb musician!!
The dedication required and the hours of good music you'll also have listened-to are going to produce ....maybe not a Mozart, but a very special player.
If you had no aptitude and 'ear', it is extremely unlikely, IMO, that you'd have lasted such a tough course.
 

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
Subscriber
Messages
3,357
Location
manchester
The important thing I think these studies have revealed is not only the HOURS of practice, but, even more important, the QUALITY of the practice which separates the sheep from the goats.
And, I guess, if you had practised 'well' for 10K hours, and had good tuition, it would be very unlikely that you'd be anything but a superb musician!!
The dedication required and the hours of good music you'll also have listened-to are going to produce ....maybe not a Mozart, but a very special player.
If you had no aptitude and 'ear', it is extremely unlikely, IMO, that you'd have lasted such a tough course.
I'm not sure if I'm a sheep or a goat how do you tell
 

Rogerb

Member
Messages
766
Location
Costa Blanca, Spain
I am neither a professional shepherd nor a goatherd, but, I am sure there are those who could assess your dedication to 'quality' in your practice routines and give appropriate feed back.

My practice is simply not up to scratch regarding quantity OR 'quality' :( But I have no aspirations to 'greatness' as a sax-player ...just doin' it for fun.


Just some of my thoughts on 'quality':
How many hours do you put in and what would be a 'normal' practice session? How much of a perfectionist and self-critical are you, regarding your own performances? How much time do you spend listening to the performances of those you aspire to equalling or bettering?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
Subscriber
Messages
3,357
Location
manchester
I am neither a professional shepherd nor a goatherd, but, I am sure there are those who could assess your dedication to 'quality' in your practice routines and give appropriate feed back.

My practice is simply not up to scratch regarding quantity OR 'quality' :( But I have no aspirations to 'greatness' as a sax-player ...just doin' it for fun.


Just some of my thoughts on 'quality':
How many hours do you put in and what would be a 'normal' practice session? How much of a perfectionist and self-critical are you, regarding your own performances? How much time do you spend listening to the performances of those you aspire to equalling or bettering?
I think I might be a goat because I know that sheep's teeth grow cotinuously there by giving few dental problems where as like your good self I am in the midst of dental repair (the gums are shot) and a loose back one had to go, so may be it's the goat for me all I can say is BAH:)))
 

Rock Lobster

Member
Messages
124
Sheep and goats aside, it seems to me we are saying the more you practice the better you get. Don't think that will surprise anyone. Defining expert is a different question but any list of skills in theory is achievable as long as you have enough time to practice. As a learner, (16 months), i am aware that i am improving, (thank goodness), but my teacher said last week, "you never stop learning and improving". So, does anyone ever get to to be an expert if in theory you can always get better? or should i just get out more?
Also, have you seen the vocal band "Straight no Chaser" doing 12 days of Christmas, thats what i call good.
 

Rogerb

Member
Messages
766
Location
Costa Blanca, Spain
I believe that one lot of research into what make a 'musical genius' (as opposed to an 'expert'), concluded that, as I wrote earlier, the so-called 'genius' seems only to be a much more frequent 'practiser' who is more analytical and self-demanding than we mere mortals.

Even the so-called 'naturals' who can , it seems, just pick-up an instrument and play it (my half-brother was one such) will, it seems, eventually reach a plateau and will not attain 'genius' status without those hours of quality practice.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

thehunt

Member
Messages
797
Location
Studham Bedfordshire
He won't send you PPT you know even if you do pay him all these compliments. Lol. [:))) PhilQUOTE=Der Wikinger;25413]I wanna be just like Pete Thomas when I grow up!![/QUOTE]
 

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
Subscriber
Messages
3,357
Location
manchester
All joking aside I believe an expert is some one who has more knowledge than most in certain fields and can by there own actions prove this to be the case.This does not stop them being able to learn more about there chosen subject and being an expert is probably something that people try to become.

A genius however is probably a title bestowed on somebody by others who have great knowledge in the same field but see this person as having knowledge and ability far beyond their own and probably unattainable by them selves.

I personally have no desire to become an expert on the saxophone,but I do have a desire to become as good as some of the saxophonists I admire whether this shall be achieved is yet to be seen,I am very self critical in my sax playing, I don't beat myself up about it but I know where I stand in terms of my ability.

As far as my practising times go, I practice nearly every day and some days for many hours generally interspersed with listening to sax pieces on you tube that I am trying to learn.I must admit it is probably very unstructured at the moment but I think that a fully structured practice regime is something that will develop as my own ability increases, I am becoming more convinced every day that learning scales and arpegios is something that is going to have to be done in a parrot fashion sort of way and is something that I struggle with.This is fortunately not a race and is just an enjoyable journey with an achievable goal at the end,and I am in it for the long haul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,993
Location
Just north of Munich
One definition of an expert is someone who knows everything about nothing.


(On the basis that an expert knows more and more about less and less - until he eventualls knows everything about nothing).

Practice alone won't make someone a good player - well structured practice, with clear goals will help a lot, as will good feedback from inside and outside. However I'm convinced that to be a good musician, you need to feel the music - and that this is something that cannot be taught.

I also believe that most of us have enough music inside to become competent (whatever that means), given the right training and practice. But there aer some people who, no matte how much they practice, will never play well - the music isn't there.
 

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
Subscriber
Messages
3,357
Location
manchester
One definition of an expert is someone who knows everything about nothing.


(On the basis that an expert knows more and more about less and less - until he eventualls knows everything about nothing).

Practice alone won't make someone a good player - well structured practice, with clear goals will help a lot, as will good feedback from inside and outside. However I'm convinced that to be a good musician, you need to feel the music - and that this is something that cannot be taught.

I also believe that most of us have enough music inside to become competent (whatever that means), given the right training and practice. But there aer some people who, no matte how much they practice, will never play well - the music isn't there.
coudn't agree more I GOT THE MUSIC IN ME.... I GOT THE MUSIC IN ME
 
Last edited by a moderator:

saxnik

Member
Messages
381
Location
Poole, Dorset, United Kingdom
Practice alone won't make someone a good player - well structured practice, with clear goals will help a lot, as will good feedback from inside and outside. However I'm convinced that to be a good musician, you need to feel the music - and that this is something that cannot be taught.
I think you're right Kev, 'feeling' the music can't be taught, but on the other hand I do think it has to be learned.
I reckon people exposed to a variety of music (especially rhythmical music) from birth feel it naturally because they're so used to it. Those who weren't so fortunate have a lot of catching up to do, though it can be done!

Nick
 
Top Bottom