Tone I love subtone, especially on baritone, why is not so often used? Vlog 62

[fabriziodalisera]

I have always loved the lushness and the velvety quality of subtone, since I have been a big fan of Ben Webster, Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins since the day I started playing. However many players do not use subtone on baritone. but it sounds amazing on it, due to the low register. In this vlog I shared some studies that I like to do very slowly, as a meditation, hence the title zen.
Despite the video cover shows a tenor horn I played baritone in the video, my trusty '45 Conn12M.
Hope you enjoy the video, enable english subs in the menu if you need.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3R4R12cS4

 

[Pete Thomas]

It might be just me, but I find subtone goes a bit flat on baritone.

But this is a good question.

It could also be out of favour if people hear it as sounding muddy as opposed to velvety when played that low down when in combination with other instruments

 

[Colin the Bear]

Fashions come and go. Nice is forever.
It seems the yoof prefer screaming altissimo on most horns.
Us old folks can't hear it anymore.
I can't hold subtone bell notes on the Baritone any more. Alto and tenor are still ok ish. 😉

 

[rhysonsax]

Nice sounds and some interesting tips. It would be good to hear the same phrase played with subtone, softly with full tone and at normal volume with full tone.

Rhys

 

[Guenne]

I admit I can't play subtone on Bari like I could on tenor or alto.
My RR UK Special (Larsen) 110 and D'Addario 3M make it almost impossible.
(Of course there's some "amount" of subtone in my sound).
Not that it wouldn't think it's a good idea to practice it - especially on bari.

Thanks for the video!

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Pete Thomas]

I just remembered something my college teachers said about subtone on alto as oppsoed to tenetr. l'll start a new thread though sop as not to hijack this one.

 

[Guenne]

Just found out that I would have to tune higher and to significantly change the angle in which the MPC enters the mouth.
I don't have to do that on tenor to that degree.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ah but I did just find this which I'd totally forgotten:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiabVxMtL2w

 

[Guenne]

..and I found an extremely minimal leak 🙂
Thanks, @fabriziodalisera !

 

[Pete Thomas]

..and I found an extremely minimal leak 🙂
Thanks, @fabriziodalisera !

Yes I think baritone leaks for subtone down there are way less forgiving then tenor. Why? @Stephen Howard

 

[Colin the Bear]

It'll be to do with the length and physics. 🙂

 

[Guenne]

So here is the first result of my Baritone subtone practice session.
I played a chorus of Autumn Leaves and Moonlight in Vermont. From the start to the bridge I played as I would play it normally without thinking of this thread. Then I tried to get more subtone into my sound (without taking too much risk 🙂)

www.saxmitmusik.at

Listen to music and sounds from www.saxmitmusik.at and explore tracks and mixes on hearthis.at

hearthis.at

www.saxmitmusik.at

Listen to music and sounds from www.saxmitmusik.at and explore tracks and mixes on hearthis.at

hearthis.at

Will take more than one day of practice, but definitely worth the effort. Thanks again, @fabriziodalisera!

Cheers, Guenne

 

[fabriziodalisera]

Thanks to everybody for watching.
@Pete Thomas Stronger breath support, very relaxed embouchure and lots of air are essential to play good subtone on baritone. The diaphragm is what keeps you in tune, otherwise the sound can be flat.
The air column is longer that oher horns and even a minimal leak can make subtoning impossible.
I solved all leak problems keeping corks under low C,B and Bb to close that keys while the instrument is in the case.
Great sound and feeling on "when sunny gets blue"! Yeah!

@Guenne I enjoyed Moonlight in Vermont. You can subtone even more as I did in the video, but of course the amount of subtone can be subjective and it depends on the tune that we are playing. Anyway, good work!

 

[Stephen Howard]

Yes I think baritone leaks for subtone down there are way less forgiving then tenor. Why? @Stephen Howard

Baritones are strange. On the one hand they'll play right down to the bottom end even if they're leaking all over the place. OK, you might have to use a gorilla grip and the horn a bit of welly - but they'll carry on blowing where a smaller horn would just stop dead in its tracks. This is why so many baritones are in dreadful shape....they just keep on working. It's only when you get the leaks sorted that you realise how much you've been struggling.

But when it comes to subtone the bari is way more picky than the smaller horns - and even a slight leak can make it very difficult indeed. Which is a bit unfortunate because the sheer amount of flex in the keywork usually means a leak is practically guaranteed...especially on a low A bari that isn't a Yamaha.

As Colin suggests, it's also down to physics and tube length - but it's also down to the extra degree of control needed at the reed to maintain the airflow in the subtone state. And also because so few players really feel the need for it; just by backing off a normal tone/volume down the bottom end pretty much gives you a sort of subtone...so why make things harder for yourself?

 

[Pete Thomas]

But when it comes to subtone the bari is way more picky than the smaller horns - and even a slight leak can make it very difficult indeed.

Well that does expalin it and I suspected as much

And also because so few players really feel the need for it; just by backing off a normal tone/volume down the bottom end pretty much gives you a sort of subtone...

Maybe they also don't feel the need as there is no model for it, ie you don't hear it much so you don't do it, whereas we might all hear a lush woofy tenor subtone and emulate that style.

I do also think once you get that low, a real spread subtone low you mogh on C, B or BB on tenor, as I mentioned above could start to just be muddy and interferer with the bass.

 

[Woodpad]

Baritones are strange. On the one hand they'll play right down to the bottom end even if they're leaking all over the place. OK, you might have to use a gorilla grip and the horn a bit of welly - but they'll carry on blowing where a smaller horn would just stop dead in its tracks. This is why so many baritones are in dreadful shape....they just keep on working. It's only when you get the leaks sorted that you realise how much you've been struggling.

But when it comes to subtone the bari is way more picky than the smaller horns - and even a slight leak can make it very difficult indeed. Which is a bit unfortunate because the sheer amount of flex in the keywork usually means a leak is practically guaranteed...especially on a low A bari that isn't a Yamaha.

As Colin suggests, it's also down to physics and tube length - but it's also down to the extra degree of control needed at the reed to maintain the airflow in the subtone state. And also because so few players really feel the need for it; just by backing off a normal tone/volume down the bottom end pretty much gives you a sort of subtone...so why make things harder for yourself?

When I test new factory saxophones I always use subtone to check the pads.
Most altos are well closed to low Bflat. It happens less often with tenors, but I have never tested a factory bari that could play subtone on the bell keys. They stopped mostly at low F/E.

 

[fabriziodalisera]

I use subtone a lot on bari, just like many tenor players do. Backing off volume down is totally different than subtoning. To achieve full contol of the horn you must be able to do both, of course. But when you play subtone the timbre changes. So playing quiet with a "standard" embouchure results in a different timbre than subtone. Subtoning or not? Well, it depends on the situation. If you are playing a slow ballad you could use subtone. If you are playing a loud salsa tune with a big band you can't play subtone of course.