Theory & Impro How to improvise split from: January 2015: R.S.V.P

[BigMartin]

[Admin edit - I've split these posts out from the original thread, keep this thread for discussing HOW to improvise please. Kev]

all the modal tricks

??

all the substitution

??

Questions?

See above.

 

[aldevis]

You can just ignore that part.
maybe as "modal trick" you can play a D blue scale on a D dorian.

 

[aldevis]

Did I manage to confuse @kevgermany ?

Maybe about tricks and substitutions....

If we think "modal" as an improvisation language, there are techniques that have been developed through the years. like (but not only)
Minor pentatonic 5th up
Minor pentatonic 2nd up
Pentatonics in&out
Dorian as a II of a 2/5/1
Dorian as a I
Approach notes
The whole book "A chromatic approach to jazz improvisation"
Harmonic superimpositions (also explained in the book)...

About substitutions, the harmonic approach:
Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 can become
D7 G7 Cmaj7
D7 Db7 Cmaj7
Ab7Db7 Cmaj7
|Dm7 Eb7| Ab B7|E G7| Cmaj || (this is nasty)

Or all the rules you find on the internet and in books


Most of the tricks mentioned are actually a distraction when trying to play the right notes in the right place, but the final goal should be swapping from modal (horizontal) approach to harmonic (vertical) approach.

Then forget everything and play.

 

[kevgermany]

Yes, I'm confused. Still am.

 

[aldevis]

Yes, I'm confused. Still am.

Please tell us.
I promise you will not be required to listen to John Coltrane

 

[Chris]

|Dm7 Eb7| Ab B7|E G7| Cmaj || (this is nasty)

That's not nasty @aldevis just plain cruel

 

[BigMartin]

Dorian as a II of a 2/5/1
Dorian as a I

My slightly-hung-over brain is struggling with these two. How are they different, apart form the lead in to the next chord?

 

[kevgermany]

That's not nasty @aldevis just plain cruel

No, self preservation.

 

[kevgermany]

Please tell us.
I promise you will not be required to listen to John Coltrane

I listen with my ear and heart. I've never got the link between theory and music. Some theory I'm good at, but not this. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that I'm the lowest of the low, not a doer, not a teacher, but a critic.🙁

 

[BigMartin]

Another question (pardon my ignorance): who's the pin-up boy in the picture?

 

[fibracell]

Minor pentatonic 5th up
Minor pentatonic 2nd up
Pentatonics in&out

Based on Dm dorian D E F G A B C D
Minor pentatonic 5th up I think mean A C D E G A
Minor pentatonic 2nd up I think mean E G A B D E
But what does Pentatonics in&out mean I wonder?

In addition you can also add the nifty concept of triad pairs,
such as F triad and G triad or Dm triad with Em triad.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Another question (pardon my ignorance): who's the pin-up boy in the picture?

Grigory Ordzhonikidze

 

[Chris]

But what does Pentatonics in&out mean I wonder

Rob, I think Al means playing a half step below the one you should be playing. A trick guitar players use to get out side easily. Also playing the minor pentatonic a minor 3rd?? higher than the root of a V7 gives you all the alterations. Check out Vic Juris on youtube

 

[BigMartin]

Grigol Ordzhonikidze

I feel even more ignorant now. I'd never heard of him. had to look him up.

 

[BigMartin]

I've never got the link between theory and music.

How's this for an analogy. Reading a book on grammar (theory) won't help you speak better English (or Italian, or ...). But it may help you write better prose when you have time to reconsider, edit etc (shedding). And if you do a lot of that, you will start write that way automatically and it will start to spill over into your everyday speech (improvisation).

 

[aldevis]

My slightly-hung-over brain is struggling with these two. How are they different, apart form the lead in to the next chord?

It is the manhole on the sewage of superimpositions:
You imagine chords vertically in a modal context. If you listen to the various versions of so what, JC and WS often put a C# on a Ddorian. I guess they were thinking an A7 that took to Dmin, not necessarily played by the pianist

No, self preservation.

It is a Coltranism, for your delight 🙂

How's this for an analogy. Reading a book on grammar (theory) won't help you speak better English (or Italian, or ...). But it may help you write better prose when you have time to reconsider, edit etc (shedding).

Well, I learned Italian grammar before learning English Latin or Spanish.
Languages like German require a more complex awareness of grammar rules, like is playing ESP by Shorter, compared to, say, Rock Around The Flock.

And if you do a lot of that, you will start write that way automatically and it will start to spill over into your everyday speech (improvisation).

Perfect analogy.
Also an appropriate vocabulary helps.

 

[fibracell]

Also playing the minor pentatonic a minor 3rd?? higher than the root of a V7 gives you all the alterations

Never heard of this trick - very nifty - thanks!

 

[Chris]

The key to playing 'out' is doing it with confidence as when you first try it sounds so wrong. It takes time to get the sound in your ears. Also getting out is easy, the hard bit is getting back in and sounding like you know what you are doing.

 

[jimmylh]

I understand the theory of it all. My problem is my brain and fingers can't operate fast enough to keep up with whatever song I'm trying to improvise on.

 

[Colin the Bear]

If you play a C# in a Ddorian and you're considered an amateur it's called a slip or mistake. Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.

The same thing by a late great is called genius and inspired creativity.

I sometimes drop a C into D major and blame it on my Jazz roots. Flattened seven maaan!

You have to wear the right hat to get away with it.

Of course if you struggle to play in tune it's all a bit academic really.