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Saxophones Here's another fake for sale, and he knows it...

Jimmymack

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857
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London
Either way you are denying the creator their rightful recompense. I don't approve of this seller, I don't approve of fakes and I know about the dirty background behind them but there is an air of sanctimony that keeps hovering around here that achieves nothing, I would hope nobody will be foolish enough to buy what is probably a very shiny piece of rubbish but the world is full of gullible people and, yes they will doubtless try to sell it on as real. I was asking if anybody who is concerned about this has contacted him, to me that makes a difference to the level of attack he merits. I'm sure he knows not to sell it as real but does he know that it is illegal? If he does then he deserves to be reported.
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
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4,482
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Sweden
I think the police need to be called.

I think that if he were to grind off the "Keilwerth" logo, it would probably be just fine to sell it.
Is it possible to protect just a name or place? A person with the name Yanagisawa (living in Sweden, there are around eleven persons with name) can't buy blanks in China and engrave the saxes with name? It can't be engraved with Yanagisawa logo and size and can't use other words or numbers combinations that are the real Yanagisawas. King is a quite common surname in USA? H.N. White named the saxes after the trombonist Thomas King. King was also a popular brandname on saxes in Europe. I think "King Super 20" was a trademark that belonged to H.N. White. But was the "King Super 21" that UMI made also a trademark that belonged to H.N. White? A surname is that enough?
 

Pete Thomas

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Is it possible to protect just a name or place?
You can protect a name as a trademark, but within specific classes. So if Yanagisawa is registered within a class that is specific enough to musical instruments then it is protected. But that won’t stop anyone using that name for any other classes, whether it’s a burger shop, adult toys or a double glazing installer.

You can also register the logo design, not just the name.

And yes, you could register a place name as a trademark if it is available in that specific class.
 

DavidUK

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Ignorance of doing something illegal is no excuse for doing it.
 

thomsax

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Sweden
No, it's not ok to sell a Keilwerth that is not made by Keilwerth. But wait a minute ..... didn't Keilwerth sell Amati and Jupiter made student saxes?

Is just the name and what is engraved on the bell that matters? Most saxplayers can see that it's not a SX90R. Differnt G# cluster, bell and body brace, no adjustable palm keys and it looks like it have no wide bow.

Keilwerth had a neck that was close to Martins combined neck (Martins patent). Fake ...... or maybe they paid for it?
combinedsaxnecks 001.jpg
 

DavidUK

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@Jimmymack - I phoned the seller but it goes straight to "unavailable" so I texted him advising him it's illegal and recommending he remove the ad and either keep or scrap the horn.

As for being sanctimonious, I have never committed a criminal offence so yes, I do take the moral high ground over the seller.

As for achieving nothing, my frequent posts about fake horns or scams may, I hope, help stop the odd dumb person from buying. As you say, there are many who are gullible.

Also, counterfeiters not only disrupt the legitimate economy and may use the proceeds of crime for other illegal ends, they may also one day put your favourite manufacturer out of business and stop you buying the horn of your dreams.
 

DavidUK

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No, it's not ok to sell a Keilwerth that is not made by Keilwerth. But wait a minute ..... didn't Keilwerth sell Amati and Jupiter made student saxes?

Is just the name and what is engraved on the bell that matters? Most saxplayers can see that it's not a SX90R. Differnt G# cluster, bell and body brace, no adjustable palm keys and it looks like it have no wide bow.

Keilwerth had a neck that was close to Martins combined neck (Martins patent). Fake ...... or maybe they paid for it?
View attachment 19086
Yes, it is mainly the name or "brand" being used to enhance the status of a cheap knock-off version.
Copying a design, as is common amongst "no-name" or differently branded horns seems to be ignored because there's no stealing of the brand name and Selmer might find it difficult to prove that it was their MkVI design which was the originator of the copy. Did the first car maker sue the second car maker because their four wheeled motorised vehicle was copied (with a different maker's name)? I don't think they did.

However, a Rolls Royce grille on the front of an identical looking car but with "PP" instead of "RR" might come a cropper as the shape of the grille itself could be considered a trademark in a similar way as the "M" Golden Arches of McDonalds would be if it alone was put on the front of a burger joint.

Can't see a PP selling anyhow.
 

Pete Thomas

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However, a Rolls Royce grille on the front of an identical looking car but with "PP" instead of "RR"
Ha reminds me of when my friend was so happy to buy a Rolex for $10 on 5th Ave.

Got it home only to find it was a Polex.
 

Targa

Among the pigeons
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@Jimmymack - I phoned the seller but it goes straight to "unavailable" so I texted him advising him it's illegal and recommending he remove the ad and either keep or scrap the horn.

As for being sanctimonious, I have never committed a criminal offence so yes, I do take the moral high ground over the seller.
Never committed a criminal offence, so in all your life you've never even dropped the slightest scrap of paper in the street never mind anything so heinous as taping off a record or the radio?
Put a wheel on the pavement? (Strangely parking on the pavement is not a criminal offence except in London but driving onto the pavement is.)
If not I've got a nice high priced trademarked stone for you to be the first to cast.
 

Ivan

Undecided
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... you've never even dropped the slightest scrap of paper in the street never mind anything so heinous as taping off a record or the radio?
Put a wheel on the pavement?...
... Or been drunk in charge of a horse, handled fish suspiciously or illegally imported a potato???

Come on @DavidUK. We need to know
 

DavidUK

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I did park on a residential pavement once when I was 17. The car was there for around eight weeks and I received a notice and a fine to pay. Fortunately I was not seen driving onto the pavement but I dare say I must have. Close call eh? I'm fairly sure no pavement manufacturers were harmed, in fact they may have made extra money if I cracked a few paving stones.

I guess it may have upset many a pushchair pusher, blind person, etc. despite it being a wide pavement but it being there for so long was the least of my worries.
 

DavidUK

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...and another one...


Screenshot 2021-11-22 at 15.54.48.png
 

Jimmymack

Member
Messages
857
Locality
London
Very strange, how many of these are out there? Maybe it’s the same one being passed around, the other one seems to have gone, maybe the other guy has a mate in Wigan, or this one bought the other one and then read this thread.
 

DavidUK

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saxyjt

Saxus Circus Maximus
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France
Ignorance of doing something illegal is no excuse for doing it.
I don't know in other countries, but in France we have a saying:

'Nul n’est censé ignorer la loi'

'Nobody is supposed to ignore the law'

In other words, wether you do it knowingly or not, if you break the law, you're in trouble.
 

Jimmymack

Member
Messages
857
Locality
London
I don't know in other countries, but in France we have a saying:

'Nul n’est censé ignorer la loi'

'Nobody is supposed to ignore the law'

In other words, wether you do it knowingly or not, if you break the law, you're in trouble.
But that never stopped anybody trying. Claim ignorance, it might work.
 

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