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Saxophones Here's another fake for sale, and he knows it...

DavidUK

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Is knowing you're selling a fake worse than selling one as genuine?

Well, he can't be accused of scamming a buyer BUT if he sold it as genuine he could argue, in the magistrates court, that he had no idea it was a fake. Whereas he's currently committing a definite criminal offence by offering counterfeit branded goods for sale.

I've reported the ad so the link may (hopefully) lead to nothing very soon. His only legal option for disposal is to take it to the tip and chuck it in a skip BUT... how did he get himself into the situation in the first place? Did he knowingly buy a fake (= dumb and unfair to JK) or did he buy it as genuine, discover its fakeness, and then decide to sell it on but as an "honest" sale?

Anyhow, steer clear.
 

turf3

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I think the police need to be called.

I think that if he were to grind off the "Keilwerth" logo, it would probably be just fine to sell it.
 

DavidUK

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I think the police need to be called.

I think that if he were to grind off the "Keilwerth" logo, it would probably be just fine to sell it.
Is that what you'd find acceptable?
I find anyone connected with counterfeit goods abhorrent.
 

Tenor Viol

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It still constitutes dealing in fake/counterfeit goods, albeit not quite 'passing off' (I suspect he thinks that by avoiding 'passing off' he's exonerated, but he's not)
 

Jimmymack

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I think you should give the guy a break, he's hardly scamming anybody at the price he's asking.
 

turf3

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Well, it's a saxophone as far as I can tell. It's not a Keilwerth. If it doesn't say Keilwerth, you can only sell it as "a saxophone, of unknown quality, made by someone in imitation of a Keilwerth saxophone". Subsequent buyers won't be getting defrauded; it'll be clear what they're buying. In other words, when you grind off the word "keilwerth" it's no longer counterfeit.

If you take a counterfeit coin, and grind off all the stampings on both sides, what you have is a disk of metal. No harm in possessing a plain disk of metal. Try to give it to someone in payment for goods and they'll only consider it worth what it's worth. It's no longer counterfeit.
 

Vetinari

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Wouldn't be worth more than a fiver if you ground off the name, it would be dead ugly with huge bare patch in the plating and to get rid that engraving would make the bell very thin. Mind you that's a fiver more than it's worth now.
 

Targa

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Wouldn't be worth more than a fiver if you ground off the name, it would be dead ugly with huge bare patch in the plating and to get rid that engraving would make the bell very thin. Mind you that's a fiver more than it's worth now.
Then a little more fancy engraving so the wording becomes a design and I don't see anything wrong with then calling it a replica, plenty of other replicas are sold such as cars.
 

Vetinari

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Looking at what's there it would take some damn good engraver to hide that.
Wonder how the guy knows it's a fake?
 

DavidUK

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I think you should give the guy a break, he's hardly scamming anybody at the price he's asking.
You miss the BIG picture. He's contributing to the "scamming" of Keilwerth. If nobody bought fakes the fake makers wouldn't survive. If they don't survive others cannot be scammed when they buy what they think is a real Keilwerth instead of Keilwerth benefitting by selling a real one.

Also, is he going to tell a buyer that they are stuck with the sax forever as selling it would be a criminal offence? I don't make the laws, but they're there for a reason.
 

DavidUK

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If he grinds off the "Keilwerth SX90R" he'll have a scrappy, generic, chinese horn very few would buy.
Certainly he's not going to get £595.
 

turf3

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If he grinds off the "Keilwerth SX90R" he'll have a scrappy, generic, chinese horn very few would buy.
Certainly he's not going to get £595.
Exactly! If he does that, then it's no longer "counterfeit". At any rate, I still think the constabulary ought to be gotten involved (if they can be bothered).
 

jonf

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It still constitutes dealing in fake/counterfeit goods, albeit not quite 'passing off' (I suspect he thinks that by avoiding 'passing off' he's exonerated, but he's not)
Pre 1990s I think that was the case. If you made it clear the item was a fake, even if it bore the trademark of the genuine article, the law looked at is a civil matter of Intellectual Property infringement. Since 1994, though, it has become a criminal offence, with potentially significant sanctions (up to 10 years in jail) to seek to benefit from someone else's IP rights. That's what's happening here, for as long as it has the Keilwerth logo on it.

The important thing, as @DavidUK points out, is the big picture. Even if someone very happily buys this fake, it's out there in the marketplace, and sooner or later someone's likely to have a go at passing it off as genuine. The damage to the brand is done, someone could get defrauded and be substantially out of pocket. It all contributes to the industry of counterfeits, which is run by criminals usually also involved in a range of other crime. That's why, these days, in the UK at least, flogging a counterfeit is a criminal matter. I think that's a good thing.

As an aside, I used to work at the UK medicines regulators, and one of my friends there worked on investigating counterfeit medicines. Conterfeit meds is a big business, and a thoroughly nasty one, run by utterly ruthless criminals. When fake meds are seized, mass spectrometry is undertaken to see what's in the fakes. It has found all sorts, as well as binders and industrial chemicals, such things as cocaine, rat faeces, domestic pet faeces, pest control poisons, as well as widely varying quantities of the active ingredient, from none at all to dangerously high. So, don't buy knock off 'Viagra' from some bloke down the pub. As well as funding organised crime, you might kill yourself.
 

turf3

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...Even if someone very happily buys this fake, it's out there in the marketplace, and sooner or later someone's likely to have a go at passing it off as genuine...
Unless you grind the name off, then it's just "saxophone of unknown provenance and quality, made in imitation of a Keilwerth".
 

jonf

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Unless you grind the name off, then it's just "saxophone of unknown provenance and quality, made in imitation of a Keilwerth".
The name, any logos, unique design features which represent copyright. I think I'd rather remove all the parts for spares and take a large hammer to the body. That's the body of the sax, not the body of the counterfeiter........
 

Jimmymack

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Has anybody told this fellow that he's breaking the law? Does anybody here own a Real Book? Has anybody here copied their mates records onto tape, CD or their computer?
 

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