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Theory & Impro Help with timing please

Tom,
I don't know if this will help you at all -
as I have mentioned elsewhere, sight-reading is also my biggest fear.
I bought a book called Saxophone sight-reading 1 (I looked for book 2 but it doesn't actually exist) (it's in English, French and German, not that that's relevant here!) So it begins at the absolute beginning - notes G,A and B and crotchets with minims, then it progresses. It's not written to teach you to read the notes on the stave, but it is written to get you into a method for sight reading.
As others have suggested, it gets you to "sing" the rythm before playing anything.
Trust me, I can't sing per se, but I can grunt my way making a higher noise when the notes go up and a lower one when the notes go down.
Start out quite slowly, tapping the beat of the piece first (no singing yet!) then work out how the length of the notes fit into that beat.
Notes of whole beats - crotchet, minim, semibreve are self explanatory. I struggle with a dotted crotchet as you must count "two" beats. ie "one, two and", moving to the following note on the "and" (I still pretty much always count a dotted crotchet too short)
Then come the quavers - "one and two and three and..." and the semi-quavers: "one ee and a two ee and a..."
After that I'd be inclined to run away and cry!!!

But the book is well worth a look at if you can get hold of it.
It only really goes up to grade 3, which is why I was looking for the book 2, but it's still a good starting point.
 
The point I was trying to make Kev, is that conductors are there to offer an interpretation, which is all any of us can do unless we are the composer and even they change their opinions at times.Let Tom attempt an item he already knows and he might have one of those "Ah! That's what it says.", rather like those moments we had when learning to read or when a Shakespeare speech becomes clear when you hear a good actor performing it.

This other item that needs correcting is that teachers ALWAYS KNOW BEST. Like any tradesman (not meant in any demeaning sense), they are your employee and if they do not even try or find out what the client would like, then they are like some Army driving instructors that are reputed to put the driver's fags or packed lunch behind the rear wheel when teaching uphill starts. I think the modern term is bullying.

Your teacher might be a very good musician but that does not mean that he is good teacher. If he leaves you feeling that you are a failure or that you have let him down, then he certainly is not. Praising your tone is not what it is about, it is about encouraging you, making it possible for you to succeed.

Saxnick, i suspect you are pretty good as a player and a teacher. Just remember that I am in the third classification. ;}

Apologies for being serious.
 
Notes of whole beats - crotchet, minim, semibreve are self explanatory. I struggle with a dotted crotchet as you must count "two" beats. ie "one, two and", moving to the following note on the "and" (I still pretty much always count a dotted crotchet too short)
Then come the quavers - "one and two and three and..." and the semi-quavers: "one ee and a two ee and a..."
After that I'd be inclined to run away and cry!!!

I don't count crochets or anything less. With a minim I play the first beat and count the second. With a dotted crochet I play the first beat and then count the second and third beats. The semibreve gets the same treatment play the first beat and then count two three four. I count only the left overs.

There are two forms of the dotted crochet and they are different. The on beat dotted crotchet gets two beats, but not two counts the way I do it. I play the first beat and count the second before moving on. I just play what's coming next and there is no "and" involved. Because it begins with an off beat quaver, I play the off beat dotted crochet without counting. Rule. "Make no attempt to count any beat that follows an off beat quaver".

Now come the quavers. I think that "one and two and three and etc" is for the birds if we want to play music without counting all the time. It has to be explained to beginners that way of course, and then we have to move on. I play straight quavers as ta ta ta ta etc, in time, without counting. Dum-di dum-di for rythmic style.

Semi-quavers. My favourite of playing them is this. Didi Didi Didi etc. Played DidiDidiDidi of course. Again no counting.

All of the above advice is extracted from a set of counting principles I bought from the long retired Leslie Evans.

(1) Make no attempt to count any beat upon which you commence a note. (Just play it)

(2) Make no attempt to count any beat that follows an off beat quaver. ( Because it's too close to count accurately)

Jim.
 
Hi. Most people have trouble with the rhythm aspect of reading. I will get a blog up soon to discuss this. A method of phonetic interpretation; that is speaking the rhythm works great. The basic idea? A pack of cards. Not playing cards, but cards each with a W/H/Q/E/S notation. Eventually rests, triplets etc. are added. Better to start simple. The eventual idea is to sit with a metronome. Turn over the cards in random order, and speak aloud the patterns. I will keep this at a basic level for now. If a few members are interested; i will in time, do a full blog.
 
Hi,
I've been learning how to read music this last couple of years and it has dawned on me that the really vital part of this is timing -ie: you can fluff a note and still be playing a tune, but without timing there IS no tune. So I'm working hard with the metronome to be sure that I'm still with the leading beat (pip/clack/clack/clack) by the end of the tune —and keeping those pips in line to the end is hard! Gradually I think I'm managing to internalise the beat so that various quaver patterns come to seem wholly natural. I found Dan Fox's book The Rhythm Bible helpful —use it with a metronome and increase the speed— clapping or vocalising the beats (dalabama dalabama dalabama bam). The book offers pages and pages of rhythms, gradually getting more complex, and I found it a useful aid. There's a CD too to demonstrate sample rhythms. You may know this already, or it may not meet your specific needs, but I thought I'd mention it as part of the general discussion.
 
Fraser Jarvis said:
When you say you struggle with timing, is it the "actual" timing that you find hard to grasp i.e. counting the beat,1&2&3&4 etc? Or is it note recognition (or lack of it) that is in turn mucking your timing up? you need to establish this before you can make it right.

Up until recently i struggled when reading (quickly) notes such as high C and above, which in turn completely wrecked my timing.

The only way to beat it as i did, is to forget your sax and just study reading saying the notes out loud, graduarly getting faster to the point were it becomes second nature.
Click to expand...

I know this is a seriously old thread but just wanted to say thanks for that suggestion as I have a bit of a problem reading notes over top C quickly enough so will give that a try - sounds obvious once you've read it but I hadn't thought of it.

Chris said:
Hey Tom here you are."LoverMan pdf" www.box.net/shared/bgkpfijs7h
Assorted sax melodies www.box.net/shared/l24azmm8vv
"Over the Rainbow" backing track www.box.net/shared/zdju7i68b8
"Cry me a River" backing track www.box.net/shared/poo8qmfavc

See if you can get on with any of these.The melodies have been transposed for tenor so just play whats on the paper..

I have a cool version of "Round Midnight" if you would like to try that.I got Biab to extend everything by 2 so its all pretty sraight forward and sounds good..

Enjoy and if you have any ???'s just ask

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris, just wondering if that Lover Man B/T is still available. Might even go as far as paying for it if you like as I appreciate that you can't just create and give away tracks forever more, although I'd ideally like a bit of a listen to a snippet first if that's possible?

Tom, hope you made the progress you were seeking and are still happily playing and getting some admiration from the relis.
 
Hiya, EarMaster is a great application, really helps with various aspects. I've only used it with an output through speakers, i.e. when doing interval identification or rhythm reading. What it produces is good enough for that.

Throatnote said:
Hi Andy
i thought ear master was just an ear training programme.It looks really useful.
Could you please tell me if you need your own sound source like a midi keyboard to get decent sounds?
thanks in advance
Click to expand...
 
Hears an exercise I was taught by a drummer friend to improve your timing.
Get two sticks claves if your being pedantic and sit down with a metronome, tap along in time, if you hit the beat exactly the sound of the metronome disappears.
It is really difficult and almost magical when it happens.
 
Lots of interesting thoughts and things to try. From a very general perspective: rhythm is something one needs to feel and is part tactile and part auditory. In Africa if you want to be a drummer you need to be a dancer first. In India a drummer must be able to use his voice to say the rhythms as part of his training to play drums. It's body (tactile) and ears (auditory).

In western music teaching, learning is primarily a visual experience that (in the case of an instrument) is translated to a mechanical finger position. This really isn't very conducive to learning rhythm, and may explain why so many have problems with this vital aspect. A very experienced reader who is a good musician will "hear" what's written, so knows the sound of the note and how it falls within the rhythm. But that can take many years of indirect training before it "clicks".

It's hard to say what will work best for everybody. It's hypothesized that there are three basic types of learners (with lots of grey areas in-between): Visual, Auditory and Tactile. These are the ways in which we experience our environment. I'd guess that if you are a tactile learner you'd best go for the dancing, drumming, or anything else that has a physical component, and may find that you're actually very good at it. The auditory person learns by hearing. That's fairly simple, you need to hear it and copy what you've heard. Both these types can use their voice as the instrument. Sax playing is about using the instrument as your voice although few teaching systems come out and say that. Developing a connection between you and your instrument so that you can play whatever you hear is the the key.

That leaves the visual learners. You are the most catered for (and largest?) group, and unfortunately, when it comes to music, the least directly linked. Trying to learn an auditory art form via visual means is always a matter of translation. Reading music (initially, or for many years) is a visual/mechanical exercise. Read note, press appropriate keys and then hear note. Eventually, for some this becomes read note, hear note (in your head), and play note. For any good improviser it's hear note in your head and play note. Rhythm is the pulse and feeling with which you play and can be "aped" by reading and playing "as written", but almost everyone knows that it's the subtleties/nuances of rhythm that can't quite be notated that make it work. This has to be heard or felt (auditory or tactile).

Visual learners don't need to give up, but need to recognize that they will have to work harder and may benefit by learning systems (other than rote reading) that may be more difficult for them.
 
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From a teacher's perspective when something is difficult it simply means that the skill(s) at the previous level have not yet been fully mastered. This is true in all subjects that are sequential in nature---mathematics and music especially. That said, my advice would be to get a copy of the Standard of Excellence Band Method books 1 and 2 with play-along cd's for your instrument. Start at book 1 page 6 and play through each exercise twice with the recording. Concentrate on the counting of the rhythms and feeling the pulse (beat) inside of the longer notes. Go completely through each book without skipping any of the lessons or exercises.

If one works on playing 5 tunes with the correct counting and rhythms, one will be able to play those 5 tunes. If one goes back to the start and learns to read and count rhythms going slowly and sequentially from simple to complex, one will be able to read and play any tunes, anytime, anywhere.
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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