Playing the saxophone Help with squawking Notes Please

[Tony M]

Hi,
I'm running into a repeated problem going from middle C to the next note up D (or going from B to D).

When making that shift from C to D where it goes from one key down to six down - plus the octave key.

About half the time when I make that note change I get some weird harmonic squawks or basically an out of tune note. I've tried isolating it just going back and forth between those two notes, and in isolation the problem doesn't happen that much. It happens in the middle of a passage or during scales. Ugh.

I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Obviously the shift from having only one tone hole closed to having so many closed seems to be an issue for me. The amount of air flow shifts significantly at that point.

I'd appreciate any suggestions. Is this a common problem?

Hopefully I'm posting this in the right section.

Thanks,
Tony

 

[Wade Cornell]

There could be an number of issues, however your being able to overcome this when ONLY going back and forth between the C and D gives a clue. Often new payers think playing the sax is like a keyboard that just requires blowing (like a melodica). The thought/attitude is "if I key the right note and my fingers are in the right place then the right sound should come out".

When you're just playing those two notes you are hearing and subconsciously adjusting your embouchure so that the notes speak freely. However when you are just fingering/keying the note where the octave key is engaged you're getting what you call a squawk, which is actually a "harmonic".

The longer we play the more we (automatically) adjust our embouchure so that it gives us the "right" note each time. This includes playing in tune. I'm presuming you're not playing a soprano sax, but if you were you'd find that you wouldn't be playing in tune if just blowing and fingering keys. You need to hear the pitch to play in tune. If you are only playing by reading this can be a problem since you're only using a pathway of eye to hands and paying little/no attention to the sound. Do your scales and practice without reading when you already know what notes you should be playing. "Pre-hear" what you intend to play. It won't work when trying to play new songs/practices, yet this needs to be a part of your practice routine. You need to sync your hearing to your playing, not just your eyes to hands.

Having said all that, the situation can be exacerbated by the horn, mouthpiece and reed. Some setups are worse than others. Very hard to advise on that as we have no idea what gear you've got.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Yes, it’s common.

Middle D will often overblow to the A above it. Try playing back and forth between those two notes. You may find that the horn wants to keep playing the A regardless of what your fingers are doing. Just keep working on it. It’s utterly normal and will be cured by practice.

And what Wade said.

 

[lydian]

I had a bari once where the octave key timing was off, mechanically. And the neck octave would pop open just barely and only for an instant when fingering middle D through G. But it was enough to cause the D issue you describe. So finger the two notes (C and D) and transition very slowly while watching the neck octave. It shouldn't move at all. If it does, you have a timing problem between your left thumb and ring finger or in the octave mechanism itself.

My solution after trying and failing to get it fixed, was to sell that bari. But if it's just a coordination issue with your fingers, practice can fix that.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Try this.
Finger the D with the octave key, blow and hold a solid beautiful sound, and then, without stoping, drop to C and hold that sound.
Stop and do it repeatedly.
Do the same from D to B.
It's important that the attack of the D,
is perfect.
Your hands should be relaxed, but holding the keys down, with no leaks.
Popular exercise for Clarinet, just different notes,

 

[Digger2054]

I have/had a 'lazy' ring finger on my left hand, sometimes it's marginally slower than my 1st & 2nd fingers, that can cause squeaks, as it prevents the G key closing in time, and the octave switches on that key too. It made some interesting noises.

Practice helps. I like to Play any scale, and return to the root between each tone Ie: C, D, C, E, C, F, C, G, C, A, C, B, C, C^. Helps with voicing, change of octaves, and getting your fingers to work together.

 

[mizmar]

Just to check. if you "cold start" (play alone, not part of a sequence ) low C, D, E and 2nd register D, E; does each note start cleanly or do any kind of warble or squeak before settling in?
If so, might be a leak?
Or embouchure or air support?
Or do some longtones, maybe with a drone, to get your target settled in because

When you're just playing those two notes you are hearing and subconsciously adjusting your embouchure so that the notes speak freely.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Also,
Could be a dry reed or reed placement problem, or a regulation problem.

First we learn not to squeak and then we learn how to squeak on purpose and call it harmonics or altissimo.

I'd be popping a leak light down the bore. A leak at G# or the lower stack being out of regulation can cause squeaks. Even Bis can be the culprit.

 

[Tony M]

Thank you all for your replies. All of these answers are great input.

I doubt very much it's the horn. This will surely be a case of operator error. 🙂

I have a Yamaha YTS-62 Purple Logo with an Otto Link Modern Vintage 7 mouthpiece and Rigotti Gold 2.5 Medium reeds. I think the setup is good and the horn is in excellent condition. Recently purchased from Tim Lin and received in almost like new condition - beautiful horn! Since I am playing the notes easily in isolation and the horn plays easily all the way down to the bottom Bb I'm ruling out the horn for now, although I will check again to be sure.

I know my embouchure needs work and I am hopefully addressing it through my practice. I seem to have a tendency to play sharp, so that is definitly contributing to this issue. Whatever is going on, embouchure needs to be part of the fix. I'm interested to see if I'm playing that harmonic A as Nick mentioned. I think I probably am and will verify. I'll try adding the exercises from PiccoPirate and Digger2054 to my routine and see if those help as well.

Some of the comments about finger timing may very well be the other piece of the pie that I could be missing. I might have a late or uncoordinated finger either on the octave key or perhaps somewhere else which I haven't picked up on it yet. I'm going to pay attention to finger timing over the next few days and see if I can tell.

I'll report back after working on these things.

Thank you all for the excellent advice! Awesome!

 

[Pete Thomas]

I doubt very much it's the horn. This will surely be a case of operator error. 🙂

It could very easily be the horn, this type of squeak often is and that would be my first assumption.

Some of the comments about finger timing may very well be the other piece of the pie that I could be missing.

It can be worth practising closing the left had very slightly before the right.

 

[thomsax]

• Positive thinking: Think how great your D2 is going to sound and just forget squawking D2.
• Make sure your reed sits well on the mouthpiece. Of, course wet reeds!
• Try to move the ligature a mm back or forwards.
• Try to play C2 to D2 without the octave key.

Some basic embouchure exercises you can DO to get more flexiblity .....

• Overtones: Play Bb major scale in overtones. Play D and Eb without the octave key. Start on Bb2.
• Overtones Switching, low Bb fingerings for all notes.
• Legato without tongue. Start on C2 and play C3 and back to C2 with inactive tongue and chromatic up. Do the same chromatic down. You just do half steps. F#3 is the highest tone up, and Bb1 lowest tone or A1 if you are playing a low A bariton or alto.
• Interval exercise: same as above but you a working with larger intervals. Start on minor second, major second, minor third, major third, perfect fourth ..... start on C2 and play B2 back to C2 and down to low Bb/A. Inactive tongue! Play up as high as possible. Expand the invals C2 to Bb2 back to C2 .... and the same up on your sax.

These exercises gives better embouchure and also a better feeling for for invals. And also a better feeling for how your sax blows. Even scale on a sax is also that the player can play even and knows the sax.

 

[Wonko]

Thank you all for your replies. All of these answers are great input.

I doubt very much it's the horn. This will surely be a case of operator error. 🙂

Can't provide much advice to solving your problem, but you do have my sympathy.
I (often) have that very same problem, especially when coming from the lower octave, going to that D2. That note has always been challenging to play for me, I remember when I just started out, it was hard to play. But even today (after playing about 15 years) It still squeaks at times.

In my case, I have to work on my embouchure, my breath support, my voicing, ...... (and lots of other stuff) to get this under control.....
I have noticed that some mouthpieces and some reeds bring this out more than others. But the root problem is me .....

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Vegas odds are 2:1 on a slow right hand,
3:1 on the left hand and even money on both.

Going to the 2nd register on Clarinet, some teach to keep the right hand down, when going from Bb to B, to help, plus what I posted above.

 

[skeller047]

I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Obviously the shift from having only one tone hole closed to having so many closed seems to be an issue for me. The amount of air flow shifts significantly at that point.

There are two issues here. First, inconsistent fingering (AKA “lazy finger”) is, as suggested above, a common issue and can cause this problem. Rather than just working the transition between 2 notes, create some practice drills that use several notes; for example, play A-B-C-D-E-D-C-B-A-… continually, with a metronome. Start slow and work up speed over weeks. 5 minutes a day of this for a month will help straighten that out.

Second is air support. If you are noticing a significant change in air back pressure or air flow when transitioning from C2 to D2, then that indicates you are not supporting the air enough. You should have your belly muscles firm and control the air from there, the rest of your chest and shoulders and throat being relaxed. Also it helps to think of the air going THROUGH the horn, not just into the mouthpiece. Ideally you want to perceive a single flow of air creating the sound, and not be aware of changes due to the changing length of the tube.

Many beginning players think that embouchure work is their biggest issue, but it usually is air support that causes problems. Saxophone embouchure is pretty straightforward, and while beginners tire quickly, forming a good embouchure should not be too difficult. But good air support is critical; breathing from your abdominal core and controlling air flow from there is not natural to many people, and when your face and lips get tired it’s easy to forget about your air.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I find keeping the right hand down on clarinet helps with intonation. I wonder if some student clarinets are designed with this in mind.

 

[Colin the Bear]

@Tony M

A horn can look great and be newish and still be out of regulation.
Yamahas have the easiest system for regulating the lower stack. Three little screws as apposed to faffing about with cork shims.

If producing the notes on their own is fine but problems occur going over the break it can still be a regulation problem. Cork and leather shrinks, settles wears and falls off. A rattle in the case can make things move ever so slightly. A change in the weather, humidity or temperature can tip a borderline misalignment over the edge into a full blown leak.

Check also that the octave mechanism is working correctly. It needs to be switching between body and crook smoothly. It's surprising how the neck octave mechanism can suddenly be slightly out of adjustment just by disassembling and putting the horn in the case and getting it out and reassembling again.

It's not always you and it's never me.😇

 

[Pete Thomas]

It can be worth practising closing the left had very slightly before the right.

Or maybe it's the other way round. Try it and see.

 

[Tony M]

Yes, it’s common.

Middle D will often overblow to the A above it. Try playing back and forth between those two notes. You may find that the horn wants to keep playing the A regardless of what your fingers are doing. Just keep working on it. It’s utterly normal and will be cured by practice.

And what Wade said.

100%. I'm getting the harmonic A when it happens.

When tounging the note I can hit it pretty reliably. This seems to occur more when slurring into it such as during scale practice.

 

[Pete Thomas]

100%. I'm getting the harmonic A when it happens.

When tounging the note I can hit it pretty reliably. This seems to occur more when slurring into it such as during scale practice.

It sounds very much like an issue with octave mechanism. I've had similar and taking it to compete tech (or diagnosing as slightly worn or unadjusted cork myself) solved the issue.

 

[Targa]

Or maybe it's the other way round. Try it and see.

Left hand down a bit - Sub-Lt Phillips