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Saxophones Heads Up - King Super 20 Baritone (Cleveland)...

GCinCT

Seeker of truth and beauty
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1,606
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Oneonta, NY
He claims it has a silver crook, but unless I'm missing something, it doesn't appear in any of the photos.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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4,653
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Near Lutterworth, Leics.
Could be lacquered over?
Silver was an option I believe so he could be mistaken.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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4,653
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Near Lutterworth, Leics.
I asked the seller how he knows it's silver when it looks gold. He replied:

"Because I have two eyes in my head and I’m not a feckin eejit."

That's good enough for me...
...not.
 

ESJohn

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195
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Ohio USA
So he's been posting on ebay for 9 years with one review that was 318 days ago from a person who gives him one star?
 

rhysonsax

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Surrey, UK
So he's been posting on ebay for 9 years with one review that was 318 days ago from a person who gives him one star?
I don't see where you are getting that information on this seller's eBay history.

The feedback profile I can see has 17 positive reviews in the last 12 months, with zero negative or neutral reviews. Admittedly, only two of those 17 reviews are from deals where he/she was the seller, and they were Conn soprano saxophones to the same buyer.

I would tread very carefully, especially at the moment. But personally, I wouldn't necessarily avoid.

Rhys
 

Vetinari

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East Manchester
The 1 star appears to be on the first one which is Gumtree, not Ebay
 

ESJohn

Member
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195
Locality
Ohio USA
Yes, my mistake there. I was referring to the first post but was thinking of ebay at the time.
My apologies to all and to ebay!
 

Michael Somerset

New Member
Messages
14
Locality
United Kingdom
The horn in question was/is a Series 4 which does have a silver neck. This horn is a relac. My own original lac KIng S20 baritone is a Series 3 ( the first S20 baritone) also with a silver neck.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
1,651
Locality
New Mexico, US
Looks like the same horn on ebay with better pictures:
And the guy still didn't include a pic of the neck....

The horn in question was/is a Series 4 which does have a silver neck. This horn is a relac. My own original lac KIng S20 baritone is a Series 3 ( the first S20 baritone) also with a silver neck.
I would actually not jump to the conclusion that it is relacqued. Look at the 'cut' of teh engraving, it looks quite clean.
Just saying...I have, over 17 years of refurbing vintage horns, seen a few Kings which looked this good and were in fact original lacq. Matter of fact I sold an S20 Tenor 6 months ago that looked that good, and it did not exhibit any of the telltales of it having been relacqued.
Also note it appears to be a King case, and the case appears to be in really good shape.

So, it is a good point to raise. But nothing in pics provided convinces me it is definitely a relacq.

If one has concerns of this...they could ask for a pic of the serial # area....that would convey more conclusively as to whether it's original or relacq.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
1,651
Locality
New Mexico, US
I asked the guy a few questions:

1) can you post a pic of the neck ?

2) is it original lacq ?

3) would you ship to US ?

Screen Shot 2020-07-10 at 9.36.33 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-07-10 at 9.40.34 AM.png
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
1,651
Locality
New Mexico, US
So, no snarkiness there really, although a bit disappointing he will not just snap a pic of neck.

Also, he does invite folks to come try it....so the lac can be ascertained in person...and as he is posting Best Offer option, he knows he won't get 3g for it.

I dunno, these do not appear very often, and they are quite good horns...if one were within a 2-hour drive it might be worth a look.
 

rhysonsax

Well-Known Member
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4,309
Locality
Surrey, UK
The eBay advert has several pictures of the neck which looks silver to me.

I think the seller could work on his interactions with potential buyers, so that doesn't fill me with confidence.

Rhys
 

Michael Somerset

New Member
Messages
14
Locality
United Kingdom
And the guy still didn't include a pic of the neck....

I would actually not jump to the conclusion that it is relacqued. Look at the 'cut' of teh engraving, it looks quite clean.
Just saying...I have, over 17 years of refurbing vintage horns, seen a few Kings which looked this good and were in fact original lacq. Matter of fact I sold an S20 Tenor 6 months ago that looked that good, and it did not exhibit any of the telltales of it having been relacqued.
Also note it appears to be a King case, and the case appears to be in really good shape.

So, it is a good point to raise. But nothing in pics provided convinces me it is definitely a relacq.

If one has concerns of this...they could ask for a pic of the serial # area....that would convey more conclusively as to whether it's original or relacq.
Here's my original and my King case. Every S20 bari I've seen has been of a darker lac certainly in photos. I disagree it's a King case. Looks more modern to me I have shown the horn for a sale to a few King players . Everyone said relac. Indeed my tenor and alto both 50's Kings are comparable to the one for sale condition wise. I've spoken to the seller at length too. He took it in trade. I guess we'll never know for sure.
 

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Michael Somerset

New Member
Messages
14
Locality
United Kingdom
lac . PM Woodwind has one for sale. Check out the lac. Bare in mind mine and the Ebay one are both Cleveland horns. The baris started in the late 50's. The Eastlake horns ditch the silver neck and have a moc croc case
 

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JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
1,651
Locality
New Mexico, US
Here's my original and my King case. Every S20 bari I've seen has been of a darker lac certainly in photos. I disagree it's a King case. Looks more modern to me I have shown the horn for a sale to a few King players . Everyone said relac. Indeed my tenor and alto both 50's Kings are comparable to the one for sale condition wise. I've spoken to the seller at length too. He took it in trade. I guess we'll never know for sure.
I have been refurbing and reselling vintage saxes for 17 years. ..I have refurbed a good 20+ S20's, two of them Baritones...a couple of points:

1) impossible to tell from pics whether a horn is a relacq or not. Based on what I see of the 'cut' to the engraving, Look closely at the pic of the engraving in the auction. That cut looks mighty clean to me. I would not go there automatically. So anyone who says definitively it's a relacq....WDR, they are overstating based on insufficient visual info. One cannot definitively tell from pics.
Not unusual for people on chat boards to absolutely claim relacq ....then it ends up being original. This happens quite a bit.
Best way to tell from a photo would be to get a snapshot of the serial number area.
My guess is...this seller wouldn't be warm to doing that.

2) you intimate that baritone lacq would have been darker than tenor and alto lacq. I have seen many King Cleve 20's of that era, and the hue is not unusual IMHO.
As a seller, I have also photographed oodles and oodles of horns. I look at your photos you provided in post #18 and I look at the eBay pics....and I don't see a dramatic difference in coloration, keeping in mind indoor vs. outdoor photos.
lastly, your comments presume that on a 50+ year old sax with good lacquer coverage, the aging/darkening/hue change is gonna be uniform on individual horn to individual horn. But vintage lacqs can start out the same hue and age/darken differently...this is quite common, really - too many factors involved to claim "the original lacq would absolutely still be THIS hue today". Depends on where horn has spent its life; in or out of case ? climate, etc....

3) I don't believe that is a modern case....look at lack of padding inside. The exterior shape looks pretty 60's King-esque to me....

....so, not saying it is absolutely original lacq, not saying it isn't.

Just saying, one cannot get a definitive answer from photos....so I agree with you: for sure ? We will never know unless someone actually sees it in person.

I just wouldn't jump to concluding 'relacq', when all we have are the auction pics....is what I was getting at.
 
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